are english players over rated

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SW2Eagle London 10 Jun 12 4.10pm
Quote The Sash at 10 Jun 2012 3.54pm Quote lil j-eagle at 06 Jun 2012 11.18am Quote The Sash at 05 Jun 2012 9.47pm Quote Sg Bilko at 05 Jun 2012 7.31pm How can you even think about judging Roy Hogson, he's had how long in charge, 5 minutes??, it takes weeks or months for a club side with new players too gel. I personally think he's been given a raw deal, expecting him too assemble a squad & build a team in such a short time is utter madness by the FA. I like Hodgson - I think what he has done is a ridiculous amount of time is very simple. He has realised that what he has to work with isnt that great and has basically made them Fulham. f* their PL reputations which arent worth spit when the play better technical sides like Germany, Holland and numerous others. Two banks of four and whether you are Steven Gerrard, Leighton Baines or Wayne Rooney you have a job and all that means is to run your cock off, making life as difficult as you can for the oppo and not embarrass yourself by trying to compete skill wise** against players who will leave you and your big time reputation in tatters. He hasnt had a lot of time to look at players so has made some relatively 'safe' choices of players that I am sure he knows arent good enough and wont be in future plans - Downing, Milner et al..will struggle post tournament to get a look in. Judge Hodgson AFTER the Euros - England will struggle to get out of the group and Roy has nothing to lose. I don't agree with that. I think the problem is that they don't try and compete skill wise, they're all so bloody frightened to do anything. If you look at players like walcott, gerrard and rooney, they all play without fear for their clubs, taking people on and doing ambtious things, which often pays off. For england, they just look to pass as soon as they get it. What we need is someone like gazza in italia 90 who wasnt afraid to pick up the ball and run with it. That's what we're lacking, that extra bit of spice up front. Young seems to be the only one willing to take people on at the moment, and it's a real shame. I'm just hoping gerrard will add a few surging runs and long rage shots, walcott will take on the left back any chance he gets and rooney plays as well as he has for united in the last 3 seasons. If they all perform and we keep it tight at the back, we could do well But they do..we try to play some kind of faux continental passing game which because we arent good enough, even for the likes of the 'star' players, we cede possession far to easily and just shuffle the ball around from L to R not really having any idea of what we are doing or how to play that kind of game with the 'zing' it needs or what to do when we hit the final third. Watch Russia, Germany, Spain et al and how they pass and then compare the speed and purpose to our team - they are comparable in ambition but miles away from us in terms of skill level and ability to do it - especially when doing it at pace and close quarters.# England have a clue how to play at international level - just not the ability. Hodgson to his credit has sussed this. Absolutely. Unlike Harry Redknapp, who said yesterday during his BBC punditry that England players are massively under-rated. Thank god he didn't get the job - can you immagine what would happen with our average offerings marauding forward as if they were Xavi and Iniesta?! The Three Twerps were one twerp short... again!
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SW2Eagle

London 10 Jun 12 4.10pm

Quote The Sash at 10 Jun 2012 3.54pm

Quote lil j-eagle at 06 Jun 2012 11.18am

Quote The Sash at 05 Jun 2012 9.47pm

Quote Sg Bilko at 05 Jun 2012 7.31pm

How can you even think about judging Roy Hogson, he's had how long in charge, 5 minutes??, it takes weeks or months for a club side with new players too gel.

I personally think he's been given a raw deal, expecting him too assemble a squad & build a team in such a short time is utter madness by the FA.

I like Hodgson - I think what he has done is a ridiculous amount of time is very simple.

He has realised that what he has to work with isnt that great and has basically made them Fulham.

f*** their PL reputations which arent worth spit when the play better technical sides like Germany, Holland and numerous others.

Two banks of four and whether you are Steven Gerrard, Leighton Baines or Wayne Rooney you have a job and all that means is to run your cock off, making life as difficult as you can for the oppo and not embarrass yourself by trying to compete skill wise against players who will leave you and your big time reputation in tatters.

He hasnt had a lot of time to look at players so has made some relatively 'safe' choices of players that I am sure he knows arent good enough and wont be in future plans - Downing, Milner et al..will struggle post tournament to get a look in.

Judge Hodgson AFTER the Euros - England will struggle to get out of the group and Roy has nothing to lose.

I don't agree with that. I think the problem is that they don't try and compete skill wise, they're all so bloody frightened to do anything. If you look at players like walcott, gerrard and rooney, they all play without fear for their clubs, taking people on and doing ambtious things, which often pays off. For england, they just look to pass as soon as they get it.

What we need is someone like gazza in italia 90 who wasnt afraid to pick up the ball and run with it. That's what we're lacking, that extra bit of spice up front. Young seems to be the only one willing to take people on at the moment, and it's a real shame. I'm just hoping gerrard will add a few surging runs and long rage shots, walcott will take on the left back any chance he gets and rooney plays as well as he has for united in the last 3 seasons. If they all perform and we keep it tight at the back, we could do well

But they do..we try to play some kind of faux continental passing game which because we arent good enough, even for the likes of the 'star' players, we cede possession far to easily and just shuffle the ball around from L to R not really having any idea of what we are doing or how to play that kind of game with the 'zing' it needs or what to do when we hit the final third.

Watch Russia, Germany, Spain et al and how they pass and then compare the speed and purpose to our team - they are comparable in ambition but miles away from us in terms of skill level and ability to do it - especially when doing it at pace and close quarters.#

England have a clue how to play at international level - just not the ability.

Hodgson to his credit has sussed this.

Absolutely. Unlike Harry Redknapp, who said yesterday during his BBC punditry that England players are massively under-rated. Thank god he didn't get the job - can you immagine what would happen with our average offerings marauding forward as if they were Xavi and Iniesta?!

The Three Twerps were one twerp short... again!

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The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 10 Jun 12 4.58pm
Quote SW2Eagle at 10 Jun 2012 4.10pm Quote The Sash at 10 Jun 2012 3.54pm Quote lil j-eagle at 06 Jun 2012 11.18am Quote The Sash at 05 Jun 2012 9.47pm Quote Sg Bilko at 05 Jun 2012 7.31pm How can you even think about judging Roy Hogson, he's had how long in charge, 5 minutes??, it takes weeks or months for a club side with new players too gel. I personally think he's been given a raw deal, expecting him too assemble a squad & build a team in such a short time is utter madness by the FA. I like Hodgson - I think what he has done is a ridiculous amount of time is very simple. He has realised that what he has to work with isnt that great and has basically made them Fulham. f* their PL reputations which arent worth spit when the play better technical sides like Germany, Holland and numerous others. Two banks of four and whether you are Steven Gerrard, Leighton Baines or Wayne Rooney you have a job and all that means is to run your cock off, making life as difficult as you can for the oppo and not embarrass yourself by trying to compete skill wise** against players who will leave you and your big time reputation in tatters. He hasnt had a lot of time to look at players so has made some relatively 'safe' choices of players that I am sure he knows arent good enough and wont be in future plans - Downing, Milner et al..will struggle post tournament to get a look in. Judge Hodgson AFTER the Euros - England will struggle to get out of the group and Roy has nothing to lose. I don't agree with that. I think the problem is that they don't try and compete skill wise, they're all so bloody frightened to do anything. If you look at players like walcott, gerrard and rooney, they all play without fear for their clubs, taking people on and doing ambtious things, which often pays off. For england, they just look to pass as soon as they get it. What we need is someone like gazza in italia 90 who wasnt afraid to pick up the ball and run with it. That's what we're lacking, that extra bit of spice up front. Young seems to be the only one willing to take people on at the moment, and it's a real shame. I'm just hoping gerrard will add a few surging runs and long rage shots, walcott will take on the left back any chance he gets and rooney plays as well as he has for united in the last 3 seasons. If they all perform and we keep it tight at the back, we could do well But they do..we try to play some kind of faux continental passing game which because we arent good enough, even for the likes of the 'star' players, we cede possession far to easily and just shuffle the ball around from L to R not really having any idea of what we are doing or how to play that kind of game with the 'zing' it needs or what to do when we hit the final third. Watch Russia, Germany, Spain et al and how they pass and then compare the speed and purpose to our team - they are comparable in ambition but miles away from us in terms of skill level and ability to do it - especially when doing it at pace and close quarters.# England have a clue how to play at international level - just not the ability. Hodgson to his credit has sussed this. Absolutely. Unlike Harry Redknapp, who said yesterday during his BBC punditry that England players are massively under-rated. Thank god he didn't get the job - can you immagine what would happen with our average offerings marauding forward as if they were Xavi and Iniesta?! Thankfully the FA have probably given the best man at the time the job. Redknapp would have been an unmitigated disaster if thats what he thinks - you cant play like Tottenham at International level - you would get slaughtered by any half decent side. Hodgson would I guess never say it publicly but the likes of Milner, Downing and Parker for instance get places not because they are world class internationals but because they are workmanlike players who will do as they are told within a system designed to contain, frustrate and play on the break. Hodgson knows we cant compete so is playing to his squads limitations. Bizarre as it seems I think that by picking players who are of poor or not worthy of International quality he may have stumbled on the way to get the best from the team and situation he has inhereted. "It's all out now, it's out in the open like a big fat fucking hairy rapist outside a bus station" - Malcom Tucker
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The Sash

Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 10 Jun 12 4.58pm

Quote SW2Eagle at 10 Jun 2012 4.10pm

Quote The Sash at 10 Jun 2012 3.54pm

Quote lil j-eagle at 06 Jun 2012 11.18am

Quote The Sash at 05 Jun 2012 9.47pm

Quote Sg Bilko at 05 Jun 2012 7.31pm

How can you even think about judging Roy Hogson, he's had how long in charge, 5 minutes??, it takes weeks or months for a club side with new players too gel.

I personally think he's been given a raw deal, expecting him too assemble a squad & build a team in such a short time is utter madness by the FA.

I like Hodgson - I think what he has done is a ridiculous amount of time is very simple.

He has realised that what he has to work with isnt that great and has basically made them Fulham.

f*** their PL reputations which arent worth spit when the play better technical sides like Germany, Holland and numerous others.

Judge Hodgson AFTER the Euros - England will struggle to get out of the group and Roy has nothing to lose.

England have a clue how to play at international level - just not the ability.

Hodgson to his credit has sussed this.

Thankfully the FA have probably given the best man at the time the job. Redknapp would have been an unmitigated disaster if thats what he thinks - you cant play like Tottenham at International level - you would get slaughtered by any half decent side.

Hodgson would I guess never say it publicly but the likes of Milner, Downing and Parker for instance get places not because they are world class internationals but because they are workmanlike players who will do as they are told within a system designed to contain, frustrate and play on the break.

Hodgson knows we cant compete so is playing to his squads limitations. Bizarre as it seems I think that by picking players who are of poor or not worthy of International quality he may have stumbled on the way to get the best from the team and situation he has inhereted.

"It's all out now, it's out in the open like a big fat fucking hairy rapist outside a bus station" - Malcom Tucker

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Kermit8 Hevon 11 Jun 12 9.36am
^^^^ I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours. Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel. Quizzlestick [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 11 Jun 12 9.36am

^^^^

I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours.

Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel.

Quizzlestick [Link]

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the_mcanuff_stuff Crystal Palace 11 Jun 12 9.52am
Quote lil j-eagle at 10 Jun 2012 11.31am Quote the_mcanuff_stuff at 08 Jun 2012 11.34am Quote Jannali_Pete at 05 Jun 2012 4.24am I reckon they are well and truely overated. How many Englishmen play for Barcalona or Real Madrid, how many play in Germany, Italy or Spain and indeed how many play for the top teams in the Premier League. The media hype them up so much that the English public and the English players start believing that they are the best in Europe or when it comes to the World Cup, England are always one of the favourites to win the comp. I'm convinced that until quotas are brought into place for Englishmen to play for Premier teams, that England's status will fall into further decline. A late reply to this, I know. England doesn't need quotas in the PL, it needs more players to be there on merit. Look at Germany. Since Euro '96 they were on a steady slide, with an aging squad and not much young talent coming though. The final straw came when they finished bottom in their group at Euro 2000. The DFB acted and made it compulsory for all Bundesliga and 2. Bundesliga teams to participate in the academy system, or face having their licensing money withheld. The result has been dramatic, more than half of the players at these clubs now come from these academies. For all the snipping about "foreign" players, only one in the German team is foreign born. Germany now has a wealth of talent. Spain has also improved greatly (to state the obvious) thanks to it's academy system. The FA need to act in a similar fashion, but they are too stuck in their ways and the PL has far too much power over them. But they only need to look at the model of more successful national teams to see where the answer lies. The truth is, some of the "golden generation" players are still there because they are still better than the young players coming through and because of a general lack of depth for playing talent. If that hasn't set alarm bells ringing in Soho Square, I don't know what will. To be fair I think that's what the eppp is actually trying to do. The reason why spain are so good is because pretty much all their players play for and came through the academy of barcelona and real madrid. This means that they spend their time playing with top quality players week in week out to develop technically, not spending 3 years in lower divisions trying to beef out so that they can compete with the rougher nature of lower league football. So by saying the best clubs have all the best talent means that a lot will go to waste, but also that all the best young players will be at the best team, which should eventually benefit the national team. However because i, and i'm sure pretty much all on this site, prefer palace to england, so we don't want the eppp. In this situation, you can't have it both ways i'm afraid I'm not convinced EPPP is the same thing, it's about top clubs being able to poach other club's players for cheap, rather than developing them themselves. And there is no compulsion for Premier league sides to enter teams into a youth league. The result is a lot of Bostocks sitting on the benches (at best), never getting a game and no under 18, under 21 or reserve games. So they end up getting loaned out to the lower leagues, where they might as well have stayed in the first place. A lot of teams in the PL don't enter teams (except the first team) into competitions. Without doing that, it's a bit of a pointless exercise. Also, do academy players train with first team players at Real and Barca? Because if they don't, they won't benefit from the top players either. Looking at the academies themselves, there's no proof that PL academies are necessarily better than FL ones. The bottom line is, unless these players get games (of some sort) at their PL clubs, it's better for their development to be elsewhere.
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the_mcanuff_stuff

Crystal Palace 11 Jun 12 9.52am

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Quote lil j-eagle at 10 Jun 2012 11.31am

Quote the_mcanuff_stuff at 08 Jun 2012 11.34am

Quote Jannali_Pete at 05 Jun 2012 4.24am

I reckon they are well and truely overated.

How many Englishmen play for Barcalona or Real Madrid, how many play in Germany, Italy or Spain and indeed how many play for the top teams in the Premier League. The media hype them up so much that the English public and the English players start believing that they are the best in Europe or when it comes to the World Cup, England are always one of the favourites to win the comp.

I'm convinced that until quotas are brought into place for Englishmen to play for Premier teams, that England's status will fall into further decline.

A late reply to this, I know. England doesn't need quotas in the PL, it needs more players to be there on merit.

Look at Germany. Since Euro '96 they were on a steady slide, with an aging squad and not much young talent coming though. The final straw came when they finished bottom in their group at Euro 2000. The DFB acted and made it compulsory for all Bundesliga and 2. Bundesliga teams to participate in the academy system, or face having their licensing money withheld.

The result has been dramatic, more than half of the players at these clubs now come from these academies. For all the snipping about "foreign" players, only one in the German team is foreign born. Germany now has a wealth of talent. Spain has also improved greatly (to state the obvious) thanks to it's academy system.

The FA need to act in a similar fashion, but they are too stuck in their ways and the PL has far too much power over them. But they only need to look at the model of more successful national teams to see where the answer lies.

The truth is, some of the "golden generation" players are still there because they are still better than the young players coming through and because of a general lack of depth for playing talent. If that hasn't set alarm bells ringing in Soho Square, I don't know what will.

To be fair I think that's what the eppp is actually trying to do. The reason why spain are so good is because pretty much all their players play for and came through the academy of barcelona and real madrid. This means that they spend their time playing with top quality players week in week out to develop technically, not spending 3 years in lower divisions trying to beef out so that they can compete with the rougher nature of lower league football. So by saying the best clubs have all the best talent means that a lot will go to waste, but also that all the best young players will be at the best team, which should eventually benefit the national team.

However because i, and i'm sure pretty much all on this site, prefer palace to england, so we don't want the eppp. In this situation, you can't have it both ways i'm afraid

I'm not convinced EPPP is the same thing, it's about top clubs being able to poach other club's players for cheap, rather than developing them themselves. And there is no compulsion for Premier league sides to enter teams into a youth league. The result is a lot of Bostocks sitting on the benches (at best), never getting a game and no under 18, under 21 or reserve games. So they end up getting loaned out to the lower leagues, where they might as well have stayed in the first place. A lot of teams in the PL don't enter teams (except the first team) into competitions. Without doing that, it's a bit of a pointless exercise.

Also, do academy players train with first team players at Real and Barca? Because if they don't, they won't benefit from the top players either.

Looking at the academies themselves, there's no proof that PL academies are necessarily better than FL ones. The bottom line is, unless these players get games (of some sort) at their PL clubs, it's better for their development to be elsewhere.

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SW2Eagle London 11 Jun 12 9.55am
Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am ^^^^ I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours. Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel. What's the alternative then Kerm? I'd also argue that Taylor probably had better players available and that, as well as trying to sure things up, he used a crazy number of players (I've a feeling it was over 50, if I remember rightly) which obviously detracted from any continuity. I agree pretty much completely with Sash. I actually think Downing gets an unreasonably hard time (although he has just had a very poor season for Liverpool) but, first and foremost, the art of management is to build a team - not a group of individuals. This is where we've often gone wrong in the past. I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way. The Three Twerps were one twerp short... again!
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SW2Eagle

London 11 Jun 12 9.55am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am

^^^^

I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours.

Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel.

What's the alternative then Kerm? I'd also argue that Taylor probably had better players available and that, as well as trying to sure things up, he used a crazy number of players (I've a feeling it was over 50, if I remember rightly) which obviously detracted from any continuity.

I agree pretty much completely with Sash. I actually think Downing gets an unreasonably hard time (although he has just had a very poor season for Liverpool) but, first and foremost, the art of management is to build a team - not a group of individuals. This is where we've often gone wrong in the past.

I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way.

The Three Twerps were one twerp short... again!

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Kermit8 Hevon 11 Jun 12 10.22am
Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am ^^^^ I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours. Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel. What's the alternative then Kerm? I'd also argue that Taylor probably had better players available and that, as well as trying to sure things up, he used a crazy number of players (I've a feeling it was over 50, if I remember rightly) which obviously detracted from any continuity. I agree pretty much completely with Sash. I actually think Downing gets an unreasonably hard time (although he has just had a very poor season for Liverpool) but, first and foremost, the art of management is to build a team - not a group of individuals. This is where we've often gone wrong in the past. I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way. The problem as I see it with England over the decades -and why they can't ever hope to win a tournament - is that unlike the other big footballing countries they are permanently handicapped by an inablitlty to up the tempo at crucial stages of games. Having a discplined and workmanlike team is all very well and good if you are happy to reach the quarter-finals and no more but to actually go out and win the darned trophy or get to the final you have to be able to swarm over decent oppo for five or ten minutes during the 90 and keep a good shape for the other 80mins or at the very least be able to counter attack at a very high level. England are able to do none of these. All the other top ten nations can intermittently. Why can't England? Gottabe a combination of lack of confidence, attitude, effort, tactics and know-how. You are looking to improve five areas in a few weeks at each tournament after many years of it being a constant. It's not going to happen and probably never will. Too entrenched now. It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though. Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am) Quizzlestick [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 11 Jun 12 10.22am

Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am

^^^^

I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours.

Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel.

I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way.

The problem as I see it with England over the decades -and why they can't ever hope to win a tournament - is that unlike the other big footballing countries they are permanently handicapped by an inablitlty to up the tempo at crucial stages of games.

Having a discplined and workmanlike team is all very well and good if you are happy to reach the quarter-finals and no more but to actually go out and win the darned trophy or get to the final you have to be able to swarm over decent oppo for five or ten minutes during the 90 and keep a good shape for the other 80mins or at the very least be able to counter attack at a very high level.

England are able to do none of these. All the other top ten nations can intermittently. Why can't England? Gottabe a combination of lack of confidence, attitude, effort, tactics and know-how. You are looking to improve five areas in a few weeks at each tournament after many years of it being a constant. It's not going to happen and probably never will. Too entrenched now.

It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though.

Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am)

Quizzlestick [Link]

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SW2Eagle London 11 Jun 12 11.07am
Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 10.22am Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am ^^^^ I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours. Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel. What's the alternative then Kerm? I'd also argue that Taylor probably had better players available and that, as well as trying to sure things up, he used a crazy number of players (I've a feeling it was over 50, if I remember rightly) which obviously detracted from any continuity. I agree pretty much completely with Sash. I actually think Downing gets an unreasonably hard time (although he has just had a very poor season for Liverpool) but, first and foremost, the art of management is to build a team - not a group of individuals. This is where we've often gone wrong in the past. I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way. The problem as I see it with England over the decades -and why they can't ever hope to win a tournament - is that unlike the other big footballing countries they are permanently handicapped by an inablitlty to up the tempo at crucial stages of games. Having a discplined and workmanlike team is all very well and good if you are happy to reach the quarter-finals and no more but to actually go out and win the darned trophy or get to the final you have to be able to swarm over decent oppo for five or ten minutes during the 90 and keep a good shape for the other 80mins or at the very least be able to counter attack at a very high level. England are able to do none of these. All the other top ten nations can intermittently. Why can't England? Gottabe a combination of lack of confidence, attitude, effort, tactics and know-how. You are looking to improve five areas in a few weeks at each tournament after many years of it being a constant. It's not going to happen and probably never will. Too entrenched now. It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though. Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am) Now I don't really agree with you here. Our players just aren't that good and, player for player, I can't think of many of our who would get into the German starting line up. Hart, Cole and probably Rooney. It's strange to blame the tactics, as so many do, when a succession of very different England managers have all failed to meet expectations. It's the expectations that are wrong, not our performances so much. I don't know how much of the Euros you've seen so far - I've seen pretty much every game to this point. Ever team except Ireland has looked comfortable on the ball. There will be a second cumbersome-looking team in action tonight, and it won't be France! We have to play to our strengths (of course, we should be addressing our shortcomings at youth level in the meantime) and that has to be to get organised and see if we can muddle our way though. I do agree that, given our limitations, we should focus on counter-attacking more - we've got plenty of pace in the side and could be a real threat on the break if we got it right. The Three Twerps were one twerp short... again!
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SW2Eagle

London 11 Jun 12 11.07am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 10.22am

Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am

^^^^

I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours.

Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel.

I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way.

It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though.

Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am)

Now I don't really agree with you here. Our players just aren't that good and, player for player, I can't think of many of our who would get into the German starting line up. Hart, Cole and probably Rooney.

It's strange to blame the tactics, as so many do, when a succession of very different England managers have all failed to meet expectations. It's the expectations that are wrong, not our performances so much.

I don't know how much of the Euros you've seen so far - I've seen pretty much every game to this point. Ever team except Ireland has looked comfortable on the ball. There will be a second cumbersome-looking team in action tonight, and it won't be France!

We have to play to our strengths (of course, we should be addressing our shortcomings at youth level in the meantime) and that has to be to get organised and see if we can muddle our way though. I do agree that, given our limitations, we should focus on counter-attacking more - we've got plenty of pace in the side and could be a real threat on the break if we got it right.

The Three Twerps were one twerp short... again!

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Kermit8 Hevon 11 Jun 12 11.36am
Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 11.07am Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 10.22am Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am ^^^^ I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours. Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel. What's the alternative then Kerm? I'd also argue that Taylor probably had better players available and that, as well as trying to sure things up, he used a crazy number of players (I've a feeling it was over 50, if I remember rightly) which obviously detracted from any continuity. I agree pretty much completely with Sash. I actually think Downing gets an unreasonably hard time (although he has just had a very poor season for Liverpool) but, first and foremost, the art of management is to build a team - not a group of individuals. This is where we've often gone wrong in the past. I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way. The problem as I see it with England over the decades -and why they can't ever hope to win a tournament - is that unlike the other big footballing countries they are permanently handicapped by an inablitlty to up the tempo at crucial stages of games. Having a discplined and workmanlike team is all very well and good if you are happy to reach the quarter-finals and no more but to actually go out and win the darned trophy or get to the final you have to be able to swarm over decent oppo for five or ten minutes during the 90 and keep a good shape for the other 80mins or at the very least be able to counter attack at a very high level. England are able to do none of these. All the other top ten nations can intermittently. Why can't England? Gottabe a combination of lack of confidence, attitude, effort, tactics and know-how. You are looking to improve five areas in a few weeks at each tournament after many years of it being a constant. It's not going to happen and probably never will. Too entrenched now. It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though. Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am) Now I don't really agree with you here. Our players just aren't that good and, player for player, I can't think of many of our who would get into the German starting line up. Hart, Cole and probably Rooney. It's strange to blame the tactics, as so many do, when a succession of very different England managers have all failed to meet expectations. It's the expectations that are wrong, not our performances so much.I don't know how much of the Euros you've seen so far - I've seen pretty much every game to this point. Ever team except Ireland has looked comfortable on the ball. There will be a second cumbersome-looking team in action tonight, and it won't be France! We have to play to our strengths (of course, we should be addressing our shortcomings at youth level in the meantime) and that has to be to get organised and see if we can muddle our way though. I do agree that, given our limitations, we should focus on counter-attacking more - we've got plenty of pace in the side and could be a real threat on the break if we got it right. Apart from v Holland/Italy 96/97 and....and...see I'm struggling already - nearly every England performance - when it really mattered - as been average or woeful or competent but without guile. A few very good club players in that time who would initially get into a German squad imo but have been rubbish/average/ok for England on a regular basis - Joe Cole, Paul Scholes, Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard, Beckham, Ferdinand, Seaman, Lennon, Terry spit, G Neville, Owen, Tony Adams and probably four or five others. You have had the players but nothing else. Quizzlestick [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 11 Jun 12 11.36am

Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 11.07am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 10.22am

Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am

^^^^

I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours.

Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel.

I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way.

It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though.

Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am)

It's strange to blame the tactics, as so many do, when a succession of very different England managers have all failed to meet expectations. It's the expectations that are wrong, not our performances so much.I don't know how much of the Euros you've seen so far - I've seen pretty much every game to this point. Ever team except Ireland has looked comfortable on the ball. There will be a second cumbersome-looking team in action tonight, and it won't be France!

Apart from v Holland/Italy 96/97 and....and...see I'm struggling already - nearly every England performance - when it really mattered - as been average or woeful or competent but without guile.

A few very good club players in that time who would initially get into a German squad imo but have been rubbish/average/ok for England on a regular basis - Joe Cole, Paul Scholes, Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard, Beckham, Ferdinand, Seaman, Lennon, Terry *spit*, G Neville, Owen, Tony Adams and probably four or five others.

You have had the players but nothing else.

Quizzlestick [Link]

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the_mcanuff_stuff Crystal Palace 11 Jun 12 11.45am
Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 11.07am Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 10.22am Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am ^^^^ I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours. Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel. What's the alternative then Kerm? I'd also argue that Taylor probably had better players available and that, as well as trying to sure things up, he used a crazy number of players (I've a feeling it was over 50, if I remember rightly) which obviously detracted from any continuity. I agree pretty much completely with Sash. I actually think Downing gets an unreasonably hard time (although he has just had a very poor season for Liverpool) but, first and foremost, the art of management is to build a team - not a group of individuals. This is where we've often gone wrong in the past. I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way. The problem as I see it with England over the decades -and why they can't ever hope to win a tournament - is that unlike the other big footballing countries they are permanently handicapped by an inablitlty to up the tempo at crucial stages of games. Having a discplined and workmanlike team is all very well and good if you are happy to reach the quarter-finals and no more but to actually go out and win the darned trophy or get to the final you have to be able to swarm over decent oppo for five or ten minutes during the 90 and keep a good shape for the other 80mins or at the very least be able to counter attack at a very high level. England are able to do none of these. All the other top ten nations can intermittently. Why can't England? Gottabe a combination of lack of confidence, attitude, effort, tactics and know-how. You are looking to improve five areas in a few weeks at each tournament after many years of it being a constant. It's not going to happen and probably never will. Too entrenched now. It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though. Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am) Now I don't really agree with you here. Our players just aren't that good and, player for player, I can't think of many of our who would get into the German starting line up. Hart, Cole and probably Rooney. It's strange to blame the tactics, as so many do, when a succession of very different England managers have all failed to meet expectations. It's the expectations that are wrong, not our performances so much. I don't know how much of the Euros you've seen so far - I've seen pretty much every game to this point. Ever team except Ireland has looked comfortable on the ball. There will be a second cumbersome-looking team in action tonight, and it won't be France! We have to play to our strengths (of course, we should be addressing our shortcomings at youth level in the meantime) and that has to be to get organised and see if we can muddle our way though. I do agree that, given our limitations, we should focus on counter-attacking more - we've got plenty of pace in the side and could be a real threat on the break if we got it right. Agree with you. But in the case of Germany, Neuer and Lahm would keep Hart and Cole out. That's assuming Lahm still plays left back, not 100% sure. But I guess Lahm/Cole would be better than Lahm/Boateng assuming Lahm plays on the right. Hart is very good, but Neuer would be generally regarded as better by a neutral IMO.
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the_mcanuff_stuff

Crystal Palace 11 Jun 12 11.45am

Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 11.07am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 10.22am

Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am

^^^^

I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours.

Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel.

I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way.

It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though.

Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am)

Now I don't really agree with you here. Our players just aren't that good and, player for player, I can't think of many of our who would get into the German starting line up. Hart, Cole and probably Rooney.

Agree with you. But in the case of Germany, Neuer and Lahm would keep Hart and Cole out. That's assuming Lahm still plays left back, not 100% sure. But I guess Lahm/Cole would be better than Lahm/Boateng assuming Lahm plays on the right.

Hart is very good, but Neuer would be generally regarded as better by a neutral IMO.

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the_mcanuff_stuff Crystal Palace 11 Jun 12 11.48am
Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 10.22am Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am ^^^^ I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours. Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel. What's the alternative then Kerm? I'd also argue that Taylor probably had better players available and that, as well as trying to sure things up, he used a crazy number of players (I've a feeling it was over 50, if I remember rightly) which obviously detracted from any continuity. I agree pretty much completely with Sash. I actually think Downing gets an unreasonably hard time (although he has just had a very poor season for Liverpool) but, first and foremost, the art of management is to build a team - not a group of individuals. This is where we've often gone wrong in the past. I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way. The problem as I see it with England over the decades -and why they can't ever hope to win a tournament - is that unlike the other big footballing countries they are permanently handicapped by an inablitlty to up the tempo at crucial stages of games. Having a discplined and workmanlike team is all very well and good if you are happy to reach the quarter-finals and no more but to actually go out and win the darned trophy or get to the final you have to be able to swarm over decent oppo for five or ten minutes during the 90 and keep a good shape for the other 80mins or at the very least be able to counter attack at a very high level. England are able to do none of these. All the other top ten nations can intermittently. Why can't England? Gottabe a combination of lack of confidence, attitude, effort, tactics and know-how. You are looking to improve five areas in a few weeks at each tournament after many years of it being a constant. It's not going to happen and probably never will. Too entrenched now. It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though. Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am) I'd say at euro 1996, they were very closely matched. After that Germany were poor for 10-12 years before their "rebirth". Nowadays, I don't think anyone can argue that England has better players than Germany.
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the_mcanuff_stuff

Crystal Palace 11 Jun 12 11.48am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 10.22am

Quote SW2Eagle at 11 Jun 2012 9.55am

Quote Kermit8 at 11 Jun 2012 9.36am

^^^^

I see where you are coming from Sash but Graham Taylor tried exactly the same thing which was enormously successful from my point of view but probably not yours.

Having said that Taylor is/was no Hodgson so there may a be a light as small as a gnats arse at the end of that 1000mile tunnel.

I think, to be fair, Fabio had put this right and was doing a pretty good job. I hope Roy can keep things going - albeit in his own way.

It's not that you haven't got the players. Man for man you probably have had more ability on paper than Germany since about 1992. Germany's record is rather better than yours though.

Edited by Kermit8 (11 Jun 2012 10.29am)

I'd say at euro 1996, they were very closely matched. After that Germany were poor for 10-12 years before their "rebirth". Nowadays, I don't think anyone can argue that England has better players than Germany.

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