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Israel / Palestine

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 27 Jul 14 10.27pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote legaleagle at 27 Jul 2014 10.13pm


Conscientious objection for reasons of being a pacifist is recognised but objection to serving in part, ie not in the occupied territories is not accepted and quite a few people have had/are having to serve prison terms. Its not a court martial unless they are already signed up for military service. Not the only country that takes such a stance.


Edited by legaleagle (27 Jul 2014 10.14pm)

Modern Israel was born in war.....Their conscription model reflects that I suppose.


Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2014 10.29pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 27 Jul 14 10.29pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 10.06pm

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.51pm


That's quite interesting Stirling, what would propose to be the borders of the two states?



Now that's difficult....The borders of the 67 war was put up as the idea for the camp david settlement.

Israel and Fatah came very close with that.

Yes all we would need is to determine which party gets Jerusalem, and there is are water rights, military base locations, the Israeli "Right of Return", prisoners, refugees, and the fact the negotiation did fall down.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 27 Jul 14 10.30pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Were you in H1 or H2 Matthew?

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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legaleagle Flag 27 Jul 14 10.31pm

Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 9.07pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 12.20pm

Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 10.57am

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 6.55am

Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2014 12.52am

Quote BobRoberts at 26 Jul 2014 10.24pm

The demonstration goes to show Israel the democracy are the good guys. Your wouldn't get this in Gaza as Hamas would kill all the demonstrators like they did with the Fatah people.

Edited by BobRoberts (26 Jul 2014 10.24pm)

F*cking bullsh*t.

This whole 'support Israel as they have democracy and respect freedom of expression' argument needs to be put in it's place. The concept if democracy encompasses so much more than just being able to vote. When Israel removes so many liberties from Palestinians, both in gaza and in Jerusalem, you see that the modern notion of collective freedom regardless of race, gender etc. isn't respected in any way by Israel, and this is one of the fundamental tenants of western democracy.

I don't support Hamas, but Israel are just as bad and the fact we still have such a strong pro-Israel lobby here and in the US exposes the myth that we know what's best. At the end of the day if you live in gaza your life is inconceivably sh*t, and Israel is spreading fear and terror through the lives of thousands. Imagine going to bed and not knowing if your child may be taken or your house blown up by the sunrise. That's what terrorism is, a psychological attack, and as bad as Hamas are I don't deal that fear is on the same level if you are an Israeli.


I went into a coma after the word 'encompasses'.


The grown ups are talking Matt. Go and play with your insults.


That's an insult isn't it? Don't give it the moral high ground when you freely do what you profess to despise.

Anyway, you are obviously pro Palestinian and one of those who thinks all of Israel is bad. Therefore, I ask, do you think being an Israeli family living within range of Hamas rockets is a cakewalk? In addition to having feed your family, you are at risk everyday from a rocket landing on your house or place work or your kids school.

The rest of your post is self important bollocks, moralising from a distance and with no practical experience of life in Israel. If you went to Tel Aviv/Haifa, a few of your Guardian inspired prejudices would disappear.


Firstly, I respond to people in the manner in which they do to me. If I make a serious point and you respond with a pathetic jibe I'll return the favour. If you want to actually have a discussion then I'll reciprocate.

On to your point anyway. Of course I don't support Hamas, I don't support any organisation who's aim is not a peaceful one. Any defence of Palestine I give does not detract from this.

Similarly I don't think all of Israel is bad. I know there are plenty of Israelis who think what their government is doing is barbaric, and those I support.

As for your question, no, I understand that living in Israel, your life is constantly under a threat, which is admittedly mitigated by having one of the best defensive forces in the world as well as the fact that the weapons fired at you are laughable. I've seen more dangerous stuff go off in the Palace away end than has hit parts of Israel. But it is a threat that shouldn't be there nonetheless.

Why I consider myself pro-Palestinian is because, for me, the life they lead is no life at all. What kind of life is it where your kids are snatched from their homes at night? Where you are policed by a force actively oppressing you? Where you can't access certain places, purely because of your nationality, and are tried in courts with a conviction rate of well over 99%? People focus on the death figures, which are shocking, but actually life can be taken away in more ways than one. Having said that, when the firing on Gaza started the other day, I went to bed with 2 reported dead and woke up to hear the figure was over 100. I'm not an emotional person, but to think what they went through compared to my peaceful night's sleep made me well up I'm not ashamed to admit.

Thankfully, Israelis don't have to suffer from the above persecutions, but the fact that a nation state can enforce oppression on such a wide scale, in an area where the average age is 17, is a f*cking scandal. That we in the west support them is nothing short of abominable.

And as for your last paragraph, no I haven't been to Israel, because I don't have the time and money to trot off to the latest war zone I wish to form an opinion about. On the basis of impartiality, I assume you also went to Gaza and the West Bank to see what conditions are like there as well?


Edited by serial thriller (27 Jul 2014 9.10pm)


Fair enough. Though the fair number of rockets that have targeted Tel Aviv etc are somewhat more sophisticated and capable of killing more than a few people (and you would certainly realise you were not at a match if one ever landed anywhere near you, that's if you still realised anything at all) but due to the vastly more expensive and superior anti-missile defence systems, they don't land so far...

Edited by legaleagle (27 Jul 2014 10.32pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 27 Jul 14 10.33pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 10.29pm

Yes all we would need is to determine which party gets Jerusalem, and there is are water rights, military base locations, the Israeli "Right of Return", prisoners, refugees, and the fact the negotiation did fall down.

Something similar to the camp david agreement that provided a bit more of a viable state......water rights being tricky.......Israel need air tight assurance that enabling this state wouldn't militarily back fire on them.

Right of return isn't going to work.....I don't see how that injustice can be corrected....Maybe some payment element.

If an agreement was reached it would mean civil wars for both sides.

Both sides have significant elements who are heavily invested in 'continual war'.


Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2014 10.34pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 14 10.34pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.39pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 9.34pm

Absolute bollocks matt.


Thank you for that structured and full response Gusset.

You are just reinforcing the view that you are a bit dim.

Edited by matt_himself (27 Jul 2014 9.39pm)


No, it's absolute bollocks. And the response was just a nod to your regular 2 word lefty bullsh it responses you are so keen on.
Why is Gaza in the state it is? Because of the actions of the current right wing Israeli government and those that went before it. Palestine has been living under a state of siege for many many years regardless of who is in power there. Not defending Hamas, as I'm sure you will accuse me of, but you obviously haven't read the whole thread- I suggest you do- but one cannot blame them for fighting back against their oppressors. The right in Israel want the holy land. They won't recognise Palestine as a sovereign state and allow them self determination. This is wrong.
I find it ludicrous that you intimate that the pictures we are seeing on social media is mere propaganda to raise funds for Hamas.
You are defending the indefensible in my eyes, which makes you just as culpable as those that continue to sell arms to the Israelis, for the genocide going on, for that is what it is.

One just hopes that the more moderate Jewish voices in Israel will be listened to and that Netanyahu and Co are tried for war crimes.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 10.36pm)

 

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pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 27 Jul 14 10.34pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 10.26pm

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 10.22pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.58pm

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.52pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.43pm

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.40pm

Troll, I suggest evidence may be required.


Weren't you the one who had a pop at me, see above, and yet you call me a troll?

You started this Champagne Charlie, not me.

Based on your posts have you been to Hebron?

Easy question.

Hilarious. Hoisted by your own petard and you result to Gusset-isms.

In answer to your question, yes.

Obviously not as a resident, that makes you a tourist or a soldier? One gives you an "experience" behind an armed shield, the other puts the gun in your hands.

As a group of guys, many years ago, not in Palestine, once said to me, unless you are here to make a difference then f*** off. However, that said I doubt, with the warped day I spent with them, they would have understood the impartiality of a neutral observer, or the views of the indigenous population. They had been indoctrinated.

As an atheist I can say, the problem is when an individual's religion gets in the way seeing non-ideological solutions. That doesn't mean all people of religion are unintelligent or evil, most of all religions wish to live in peace, just that some are intransigent to extent of condoning murder or ethic cleansing.

What the f*** has the above got to do with anything?

The first time in 10 years I say this to any poster on any site, but I don't believe you, "yes" is an easy thing to say on a website.

As I have said if you live in a fantasy world it is not fair that people tease you, if you have a problem.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 27 Jul 14 10.43pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 10.33pm

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 10.29pm

Yes all we would need is to determine which party gets Jerusalem, and there is are water rights, military base locations, the Israeli "Right of Return", prisoners, refugees, and the fact the negotiation did fall down.

Something similar to the camp david agreement that provided a bit more of a viable state......water rights being tricky.......Israel need air tight assurance that enabling this state wouldn't militarily back fire on them.

Right of return isn't going to work.....I don't see how that injustice can be corrected....Maybe some payment element.

If an agreement was reached it would mean civil wars for both sides.

Both sides have significant elements who are heavily invested in 'continual war'.


Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2014 10.34pm)

It is difficult, as I have said I have no religious affiliations, or ethnic, but this is a Gorgon knot that covers the whole region.

If it weren't for religion people would realise the real risk to the viability of the Near East is water, starting with Turks damming rivers in the North to the unsustainability of desert populations post-oil in the South.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 27 Jul 14 10.50pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 10.43pm

It is difficult, as I have said I have no religious affiliations, or ethnic, but this is a Gorgon knot that covers the whole region.

If it weren't for religion people would realise the real risk to the viability of the Near East is water, starting with Turks damming rivers in the North to the unsustainability of desert populations post-oil in the South.


Yup pretty much......Without the illusion of religion much of these problems just wouldn't exist.


Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2014 10.50pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Palacetinian's Profile Palacetinian Flag Surrey Fam 27 Jul 14 11.42pm Send a Private Message to Palacetinian Add Palacetinian as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 10.34pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.39pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 9.34pm

Absolute bollocks matt.


Thank you for that structured and full response Gusset.

You are just reinforcing the view that you are a bit dim.

Edited by matt_himself (27 Jul 2014 9.39pm)

No, it's absolute bollocks. And the response was just a nod to your regular 2 word lefty bullsh it responses you are so keen on.
Why is Gaza in the state it is? Because of the actions of the current right wing Israeli government and those that went before it. Palestine has been living under a state of siege for many many years regardless of who is in power there. Not defending Hamas, as I'm sure you will accuse me of, but you obviously haven't read the whole thread- I suggest you do- but one cannot blame them for fighting back against their oppressors. The right in Israel want the holy land. They won't recognise Palestine as a sovereign state and allow them self determination. This is wrong.
I find it ludicrous that you intimate that the pictures we are seeing on social media is mere propaganda to raise funds for Hamas.
You are defending the indefensible in my eyes, which makes you just as culpable as those that continue to sell arms to the Israelis, for the genocide going on, for that is what it is.

One just hopes that the more moderate Jewish voices in Israel will be listened to and that Netanyahu and Co are tried for war crimes.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 10.36pm)

Indeed, some Israelis are seeing the bigger picture - here is one:
[Link]

 


Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)!

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 28 Jul 14 12.22am

[Link]
Have a look at who voted for, against or abstained in this vote at the OHCHR for 'an independent, international commission of inquiry to investigate the conflict in the occupied Palestinian territories'.
I can't believe it won't happen until March 2015!

10403872_945000875516720_3004898952578784165_o.jpg Attachment: 10403872_945000875516720_3004898952578784165_o.jpg (84.43Kb)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 28 Jul 14 12.29am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 12.22am

[Link]
Have a look at who voted for, against or abstained in this vote at the OHCHR for 'an independent, international commission of inquiry to investigate the conflict in the occupied Palestinian territories'.
I can't believe it won't happen until March 2015!

Do you like talking shops then Nick?

You are aware of course that nothing is going to happen to anyone in the Israeli cabinet?

Just boycott your fruit.

Oh and without American money the whole of the UN wouldn't even have enough rent out their buildings.....And this inquiry probably wouldn't even happen.


 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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