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Israel / Palestine

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 28 Jul 14 12.31am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend


Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 12.22am

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Have a look at who voted for, against or abstained in this vote at the OHCHR for 'an independent, international commission of inquiry to investigate the conflict in the occupied Palestinian territories'.
I can't believe it won't happen until March 2015!

Do you like talking shops then Nick?

You are aware of course that nothing is going to happen to anyone in the Israeli cabinet? America and to a lesser extent the west will never abandon Israel.

Just boycott your fruit.

Oh and without American money the whole of the UN wouldn't even have enough to rent out their buildings.....And this inquiry probably wouldn't even happen.


Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Jul 2014 12.45am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 28 Jul 14 12.41am

Parrot

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 28 Jul 14 12.45am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 12.41am

Parrot


 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 28 Jul 14 6.44am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 10.34pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 10.26pm

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 10.22pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.58pm

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.52pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.43pm

Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 9.40pm

Troll, I suggest evidence may be required.


Weren't you the one who had a pop at me, see above, and yet you call me a troll?

You started this Champagne Charlie, not me.

Based on your posts have you been to Hebron?

Easy question.

Hilarious. Hoisted by your own petard and you result to Gusset-isms.

In answer to your question, yes.

Obviously not as a resident, that makes you a tourist or a soldier? One gives you an "experience" behind an armed shield, the other puts the gun in your hands.

As a group of guys, many years ago, not in Palestine, once said to me, unless you are here to make a difference then f*** off. However, that said I doubt, with the warped day I spent with them, they would have understood the impartiality of a neutral observer, or the views of the indigenous population. They had been indoctrinated.

As an atheist I can say, the problem is when an individual's religion gets in the way seeing non-ideological solutions. That doesn't mean all people of religion are unintelligent or evil, most of all religions wish to live in peace, just that some are intransigent to extent of condoning murder or ethic cleansing.

What the f*** has the above got to do with anything?

The first time in 10 years I say this to any poster on any site, but I don't believe you, "yes" is an easy thing to say on a website.

As I have said if you live in a fantasy world it is not fair that people tease you, if you have a problem.

Believe what you want. It appears that you are wanting to believe others more and their twisting of the truth to suit their motives on here. There are plenty on here who know what I do for a living and the extent of my travels.

Personally, I think you are full of self righteous s*** and are looking to knock those who have the temerity to question you.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 28 Jul 14 6.49am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 10.34pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.39pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 9.34pm

Absolute bollocks matt.


Thank you for that structured and full response Gusset.

You are just reinforcing the view that you are a bit dim.

Edited by matt_himself (27 Jul 2014 9.39pm)


No, it's absolute bollocks. And the response was just a nod to your regular 2 word lefty bullsh it responses you are so keen on.
Why is Gaza in the state it is? Because of the actions of the current right wing Israeli government and those that went before it. Palestine has been living under a state of siege for many many years regardless of who is in power there. Not defending Hamas, as I'm sure you will accuse me of, but you obviously haven't read the whole thread- I suggest you do- but one cannot blame them for fighting back against their oppressors. The right in Israel want the holy land. They won't recognise Palestine as a sovereign state and allow them self determination. This is wrong.
I find it ludicrous that you intimate that the pictures we are seeing on social media is mere propaganda to raise funds for Hamas.
You are defending the indefensible in my eyes, which makes you just as culpable as those that continue to sell arms to the Israelis, for the genocide going on, for that is what it is.

One just hopes that the more moderate Jewish voices in Israel will be listened to and that Netanyahu and Co are tried for war crimes.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 10.36pm)

If only everything in life were as simple as it is on Planet Gusset.

You have yet again twisted my words for your own agenda. I said that it is not in the interests of many groups and countries to end the suffering of Gaza. I stand by this. If it were, why the Arab World not making more of an effort? Why are countries with real Global clout, such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar, not pushing harder for a resolution?

I also maintain that a government with a less intransigent outlook, one that is not committed to the destruction of Israel and as many Jews as it can along the way, would have negotiated more with Israel and less rockets would be fired into Israel, thus meaning the Israeli government would be more likely to negotiate and make concessions.

You are blinkered Gusset. And prejudiced. But don't let that stop you.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View dannyh's Profile dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 28 Jul 14 7.43am Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 12.07am

Quote nickgusset at 26 Jul 2014 11.51pm

This showed up on Twitter. Stirling, did you write it.?

Maybe you should be explaining why you haven't posted against the posters on here supporting Hamas's constitution.

Personally I do feel there has been anti semitism on this thread....Maybe not from you (after you stated you don't support Hamas firing rockets) but from certain others .

I don't support any innocent dying......This action led to that.....Attacks upon facilities that should be safe need to be investigated.

However support for Hamas.....That you somehow seem not to have read on this thread.....Is also wrong headed.....And most have stayed silent.

[Link]


I suppose HAMAS were firing rockets from the third floor of a hospital.

Edited by dannyh (28 Jul 2014 7.45am)

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 28 Jul 14 8.12am

Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 6.49am

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 10.34pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.39pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 9.34pm

Absolute bollocks matt.


Thank you for that structured and full response Gusset.

You are just reinforcing the view that you are a bit dim.

Edited by matt_himself (27 Jul 2014 9.39pm)


No, it's absolute bollocks. And the response was just a nod to your regular 2 word lefty bullsh it responses you are so keen on.
Why is Gaza in the state it is? Because of the actions of the current right wing Israeli government and those that went before it. Palestine has been living under a state of siege for many many years regardless of who is in power there. Not defending Hamas, as I'm sure you will accuse me of, but you obviously haven't read the whole thread- I suggest you do- but one cannot blame them for fighting back against their oppressors. The right in Israel want the holy land. They won't recognise Palestine as a sovereign state and allow them self determination. This is wrong.
I find it ludicrous that you intimate that the pictures we are seeing on social media is mere propaganda to raise funds for Hamas.
You are defending the indefensible in my eyes, which makes you just as culpable as those that continue to sell arms to the Israelis, for the genocide going on, for that is what it is.

One just hopes that the more moderate Jewish voices in Israel will be listened to and that Netanyahu and Co are tried for war crimes.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 10.36pm)

If only everything in life were as simple as it is on Planet Gusset.

You have yet again twisted my words for your own agenda. I said that it is not in the interests of many groups and countries to end the suffering of Gaza. I stand by this. If it were, why the Arab World not making more of an effort? Why are countries with real Global clout, such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar, not pushing harder for a resolution?

I also maintain that a government with a less intransigent outlook, one that is not committed to the destruction of Israel and as many Jews as it can along the way, would have negotiated more with Israel and less rockets would be fired into Israel, thus meaning the Israeli government would be more likely to negotiate and make concessions.

You are blinkered Gusset. And prejudiced. But don't let that stop you.


So you agree with people who do not want to end the suffering in Gaza? Such empathy Matt.
Can you explain where I have been prejudiced.

Edited by nickgusset (28 Jul 2014 8.12am)

 

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 28 Jul 14 8.24am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Journalist Noam Sheizaf, eloquent and unbiased, writes:

"I know of many Palestinians who do not like Hamas. Yet for them, the Gaza war is about the siege – part of their own war of independence. Israelis refuse to get that.

In The Fog of War, Errol Morris’ excellent documentary, former U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara speaks about a certain inability to understand the enemy – one that stems from a lack of empathy.

In the film, McNamara, a brilliant systems analyst, who is today associated more than anything with the Vietnam War, says that part of President Kennedy’s successful management of the Cuban Missile Crisis was his administration’s ability to put itself in the shoes of the Soviets and understand their point of view. “In the case of Vietnam,” he says, “we didn’t know them well enough to empathize.” As a result, each side had a completely different understanding of what the war was about.

This understanding came to McNamara only in 1991, when he visited Vietnam and met with the country’s foreign minister. McNamara asked the foreign minister whether he thought it was possible to reach the same results of the war (independence and uniting the south with the north) without the heavy losses. Between one and three million people died in the war, most of them Vietnamese civilians. This does not include the hundreds of thousands of casualties in the war against the French, which took place shortly before. Approximately 58,000 American soldiers were also killed in the Vietnam War.

“You were fighting to enslave us,” yelled the foreign minister at McNamara, who in turn replied that that is an absurd notion. The two nearly came to blows. But as time passed McNamara understood. “We saw Vietnam as an element of the Cold War,” he says, whereas what the foreign minister was trying to tell him was that for the Vietnamese it was a war of independence. Communism was not the heart of the matter for the Vietnamese. They were willing to make the worst sacrifices because they were fighting for their freedom – not for Marx or Brezhnev.

Nations will make inconceivable sacrifices in these kinds of struggles. An entire one percent of the Jewish population was killed in the 1948 war. The public accepted it painfully and with a stiff upper lip because they felt, just like the Vietnamese, that they were fighting for their lives and for their freedom. We have become so much more susceptible to loss, not because we went soft, but because we have a deeper understanding that despite all the “we’re fighting for our future” slogans, 2014 is not 1948.

Over 2,000 Palestinians were killed in all three military operations in Gaza, not including the Second Intifada. Most of them were civilians. I’ve exchanged emails with people in Gaza in the past few days. These are people who don’t care much for Hamas in their everyday lives, whether due to its fundamentalist ideology, political oppression or other aspects of its rule. But they do support Hamas in its war against Israel; for them, fighting the siege is their war of independence. Or at least one part of it.

The demand that the people of Gaza protest against Hamas, often heard in Israel today, is absurd. Even if we disregard the fact that Israelis themselves hate protests in times of war, they still expect the Palestinians to conduct a civil uprising under fire. The people of Gaza support Hamas in its war against Israel because they perceive it to be part of their war of independence. A Hamas warrior who swears by the Quran is no different from a Vietcong reciting The Internationale before leaving for battle. These kind of rituals leave a strong impression, but they are not the real story.

Israelis, both left and right, are wrong to assume that Hamas is a dictatorship fighting Israel against its people’s will. Hamas is indeed a dictatorship, and there are many Palestinians who would gladly see it fall, but not at this moment in time. Right now I have no doubt that most Palestinians support the attacks on IDF soldiers entering Gaza; they support kidnapping as means to release their prisoners (whom they see as prisoners of war) and the unpleasant fact is that most of them, I believe, support firing rockets at Israel.

“If we had planes and tanks to fight the IDF, we wouldn’t need to fire rockets,” is a sentence I have heard more than once. As an Israeli, it is unpleasant for me to hear, but one needs to at least try and understand what lies behind such a position. What is certain is that bombing Gaza will not change their minds. On the contrary.

“But if they didn’t fire rockets or launch terror attacks there would be no siege. So what do they want?” the Israeli public asks. After all, we already left Gaza.

Back to McNamara and The Fog of War. If the citizens of Vietnam would have abandoned Communism, McNamara told the Vietnamese foreign minister 1991, the U.S. wouldn’t have even cared about them. They could have had both their independence and their unity. But in the eyes of the Vietnamese, things looked completely different. As soon as they managed to drive out the French, in marched the Americans. Colonialism simply never stopped. The choice was between a corrupt U.S.-sponsored regime in the south and a horrific war with the north.

For the Palestinians, the choice is between occupation by proxy in the West Bank and a war in Gaza. Both offer no hope, and neither are forms of freedom. The Israeli promise — that an end to armed struggle will bring freedom — is not trustworthy, as the experiences of past years has shown. It simply never happens. The quiet years in the West Bank have not brought the Palestinians any closer to an independent state, while the truce in between wars in Gaza has not brought about a relief from the siege. One can debate the reasons for why this happened, but one cannot debate reality.

Hamas tells the Palestinians the simple truth: freedom comes at the cost of blood. The tragedy is that we usually provide the evidence. After all, the evacuation of settlements in Gaza came after the Second Intifada, not as a result of negotiations. The Oslo Accords came after the First Intifada; before that, Israel turned down even the convenient London Agreement between Shimon Peres and Jordan’s King Hussein.

Israelis are convinced they are fighting a terror organization driven by a fundamentalist Islamic ideology. Palestinians are convinced Israelis are looking to enslave them, and that as soon as the war is over the siege will be reinforced. Since this is exactly what Israel intends to do, as our government has repeatedly stated, they have no reason to stop fighting.

Hamas may accept a ceasefire soon. Its regime might collapse. Either way, it is only a matter of time before the next round of violence. Human lives are not cheaper for Palestinians than they are for us. But nations fighting for their freedom will endure the worst sacrifices. "

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 28 Jul 14 8.30am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 8.12am

Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 6.49am

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 10.34pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.39pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 9.34pm

Absolute bollocks matt.


Thank you for that structured and full response Gusset.

You are just reinforcing the view that you are a bit dim.

Edited by matt_himself (27 Jul 2014 9.39pm)


No, it's absolute bollocks. And the response was just a nod to your regular 2 word lefty bullsh it responses you are so keen on.
Why is Gaza in the state it is? Because of the actions of the current right wing Israeli government and those that went before it. Palestine has been living under a state of siege for many many years regardless of who is in power there. Not defending Hamas, as I'm sure you will accuse me of, but you obviously haven't read the whole thread- I suggest you do- but one cannot blame them for fighting back against their oppressors. The right in Israel want the holy land. They won't recognise Palestine as a sovereign state and allow them self determination. This is wrong.
I find it ludicrous that you intimate that the pictures we are seeing on social media is mere propaganda to raise funds for Hamas.
You are defending the indefensible in my eyes, which makes you just as culpable as those that continue to sell arms to the Israelis, for the genocide going on, for that is what it is.

One just hopes that the more moderate Jewish voices in Israel will be listened to and that Netanyahu and Co are tried for war crimes.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 10.36pm)

If only everything in life were as simple as it is on Planet Gusset.

You have yet again twisted my words for your own agenda. I said that it is not in the interests of many groups and countries to end the suffering of Gaza. I stand by this. If it were, why the Arab World not making more of an effort? Why are countries with real Global clout, such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar, not pushing harder for a resolution?

I also maintain that a government with a less intransigent outlook, one that is not committed to the destruction of Israel and as many Jews as it can along the way, would have negotiated more with Israel and less rockets would be fired into Israel, thus meaning the Israeli government would be more likely to negotiate and make concessions.

You are blinkered Gusset. And prejudiced. But don't let that stop you.


So you agree with people who do not want to end the suffering in Gaza? Such empathy Matt.
Can you explain where I have been prejudiced.

Edited by nickgusset (28 Jul 2014 8.12am)


Gusset, instead of trying to cheap point score I suggest you change your method of responding to things you don't like by avoiding the 'you want to see death', 'you want to see poverty' and 'you want to see suffering'.

Nowhere have I ever said such stuff and you are continuing to make yourself look ridiculous by spouting it. I am offering you a viewpoint, one you can only respond too by trying to land cheap shots.

You are prejudiced against Israel. It is apparent in every word you write. All those SWP banners and leaflets appear to have got to you.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 28 Jul 14 8.34am

Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 8.30am

Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 8.12am

Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 6.49am

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 10.34pm

Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.39pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 9.34pm

Absolute bollocks matt.


Thank you for that structured and full response Gusset.

You are just reinforcing the view that you are a bit dim.

Edited by matt_himself (27 Jul 2014 9.39pm)


No, it's absolute bollocks. And the response was just a nod to your regular 2 word lefty bullsh it responses you are so keen on.
Why is Gaza in the state it is? Because of the actions of the current right wing Israeli government and those that went before it. Palestine has been living under a state of siege for many many years regardless of who is in power there. Not defending Hamas, as I'm sure you will accuse me of, but you obviously haven't read the whole thread- I suggest you do- but one cannot blame them for fighting back against their oppressors. The right in Israel want the holy land. They won't recognise Palestine as a sovereign state and allow them self determination. This is wrong.
I find it ludicrous that you intimate that the pictures we are seeing on social media is mere propaganda to raise funds for Hamas.
You are defending the indefensible in my eyes, which makes you just as culpable as those that continue to sell arms to the Israelis, for the genocide going on, for that is what it is.

One just hopes that the more moderate Jewish voices in Israel will be listened to and that Netanyahu and Co are tried for war crimes.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 10.36pm)

If only everything in life were as simple as it is on Planet Gusset.

You have yet again twisted my words for your own agenda. I said that it is not in the interests of many groups and countries to end the suffering of Gaza. I stand by this. If it were, why the Arab World not making more of an effort? Why are countries with real Global clout, such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar, not pushing harder for a resolution?

I also maintain that a government with a less intransigent outlook, one that is not committed to the destruction of Israel and as many Jews as it can along the way, would have negotiated more with Israel and less rockets would be fired into Israel, thus meaning the Israeli government would be more likely to negotiate and make concessions.

You are blinkered Gusset. And prejudiced. But don't let that stop you.


So you agree with people who do not want to end the suffering in Gaza? Such empathy Matt.
Can you explain where I have been prejudiced.

Edited by nickgusset (28 Jul 2014 8.12am)


Gusset, instead of trying to cheap point score I suggest you change your method of responding to things you don't like by avoiding the 'you want to see death', 'you want to see poverty' and 'you want to see suffering'.

Nowhere have I ever said such stuff and you are continuing to make yourself look ridiculous by spouting it. I am offering you a viewpoint, one you can only respond too by trying to land cheap shots.

You are prejudiced against Israel. It is apparent in every word you write. All those SWP banners and leaflets appear to have got to you.


You have not read the thread matt. You are incorrect in your assertions.

 

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 28 Jul 14 8.42am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

One cannot but feel sympathy with the Palestinians

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 28 Jul 14 8.52am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 28 Jul 2014 8.42am

One cannot but feel sympathy with the Palestinians


I would add one cannot but feel sympathy with those caught up in this debacle from both sides who are just trying to go about their lives.

Edited by matt_himself (28 Jul 2014 8.53am)

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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