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Israel / Palestine

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 29 Jul 14 11.03pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 29 Jul 2014 10.57pm

Good post.

The problem being with the bolded bit that even before Hamas took power and in times of non-conflict the Gazans were subjected to harassment and restriction and various other Israeli subjugation tactics.

That won't stop. Even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow.

This is where a lot of anti-Israeli government policy sentiment stems from. Their wilfulness and their state terror over the years.

Before Hamas had power....When the moderates were in power in Israel we had peace moves. We had Camp David....and lots of fatah/labour meetings......In general we know what an agreement looks like.

But even the moderates won't make peace with Hamas....I wouldn't make peace with Hamas.....You wouldn't either....Unless you want to make peace with someone who has promised to kill you.

The government of the people of Palestine has to recognise Israel......Otherwise we are stuck here.


Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 11.04pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 29 Jul 14 11.19pm

Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 9.23pm

Quote nickgusset at 29 Jul 2014 9.13pm

Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 8.52pm

Quote pefwin at 29 Jul 2014 8.32pm

Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 8.20pm

Quote pefwin at 29 Jul 2014 7.51pm

Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 7.36pm

Quote pefwin at 29 Jul 2014 7.32pm

Quote ghosteagle at 29 Jul 2014 4.28pm

Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 4.24pm

Have a look at the history of Palestine and Israel. A lot of Palestinians were happy to sell their land to Jewish settlers pre and post 1948.

The version being provided is too simplistic. This is, like the Balkans in the 1990's, a conflict we will never truly understand as we don't love there nor are really a part of it.

So, i can't have a moral opinion on the murder of children unless i've lived in the country of the murderer. Weird. Does this apply to any other crimes or just the slaughter of the innocent?


Careful Matt's believes he has been to Hebron probably in 1948, with these his views he's probably shot at some old women and children, just because they weren't Jewish.

I have really got to you, haven't I?

Yes, you have.

Anyone who is an apologist for the wiping out of a legitimate state, mass murder,or genocide really really "get my goat".

Your antithesis would be those beardy blokes that want to go to the Near East to support ISIS, who annoy me just as much. Those idiots that your politics are encouraging.


Then the above says you are a prejudiced idiot.

I have consistently said throughout these threads that my sympathies lie with the ordinary people of both sides, I believe that both their leaderships are c***s and that Israel is fact, just as much as Palestine is a fact. What I don't subscribe too is Israel bad, Palestine good. The situation is too complex for that easy analogy.

Good to see that this thread has changed your opinion, nobody is right or wrong, nor is blame an exercise in equality, nor condoning asymmetrical war ethical or pretty; however your grasp of Operation Protective edge is minimal.

Perhaps if you have one of your visits to Hebron, you may be close to Gaza enough that you may get an update to give you an update.

Don't try and pat yourself on the back. I have been consistent throughout these threads. These threads wouldn't change my mind because people like yourself and Gusset are so quick to label Israel and Israelis as bad.

Keep digging about me. It is pisspoor and as intellectually bankrupt as Gusset's 'blah blah blah, you want to see people suffer don't you' posts.

You haven't been consistent matt. As for your charge of me saying Israelis are bad. You are wrong. I have said I am against the right wing Israeli government, as I have also said I deplore Hamas. Get your facts right before dishing out insults.
Now kindly leave me alone and debate the facts and opinions before slating individuals, it contravenes this site's guidelines and puts you in danger of being seen as odious, which I'm sure you are not.


Give it up Gusset. You have labelled me everything from a cryto facist to a war mongering b******. You have told me to f*** off, a few times, on here. I have never sworn at you. Be careful before you start accusing others of contravening rules on here because I have been very respectful of others and never resorted to the base level others have.

The fact that you don't like being questionned you is your problem. I can take any questioning and encourage it. I have the hide of a rhino. That is to me, part of being an active member of a message board. If you can't take it, don't give it.

You are right now coming over as self righteous and appearing to put yourself in a category where you cannot be questioned. That ain't on.


Far from it. I don't mind being questioned. However you go beyond this. Your paranoia of the 'left' is laughable. As I have stated many times in this thread, Hamas and Netanyahu's lot are both culpable, yet you continue to say I haven't said this, followed up with base insults. I apologise for telling you to fack off. Now, like you I am thick skinned, however your sniping posting style shows your true colours and makes this message board both boring and even unpleasant for some.

Edited by nickgusset (30 Jul 2014 1.59am)

 

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 29 Jul 14 11.21pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 29 Jul 2014 11.03pm

Quote Kermit8 at 29 Jul 2014 10.57pm

Good post.

The problem being with the bolded bit that even before Hamas took power and in times of non-conflict the Gazans were subjected to harassment and restriction and various other Israeli subjugation tactics.

That won't stop. Even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow.

This is where a lot of anti-Israeli government policy sentiment stems from. Their wilfulness and their state terror over the years.

Before Hamas had power....When the moderates were in power in Israel we had peace moves. We had Camp David....and lots of fatah/labour meetings......In general we know what an agreement looks like.

But even the moderates won't make peace with Hamas....I wouldn't make peace with Hamas.....You wouldn't either....Unless you want to make peace with someone who has promised to kill you.

The government of the people of Palestine has to recognise Israel......Otherwise we are stuck here.


Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 11.04pm)


You don't get it. It doesn't matter who is in power on the Palestinian side the extreme right-wing Israelis will not, cannot, make peace because it is contrary to their raison d'être. That is why Rabin was killed by a Jew.

That inflexible stance is made a lot easier by having Hamas.

If the ultra-orthodox and Likud types lost their power base tomorrow and Israeli doves were in power Hamas would suddenly find it more difficult to garner support. But then those doves would be assassinated not by Palestinians but by their own people. The enemy within.

 


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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 29 Jul 14 11.27pm

Quote Kermit8 at 29 Jul 2014 11.21pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 29 Jul 2014 11.03pm

Quote Kermit8 at 29 Jul 2014 10.57pm

Good post.

The problem being with the bolded bit that even before Hamas took power and in times of non-conflict the Gazans were subjected to harassment and restriction and various other Israeli subjugation tactics.

That won't stop. Even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow.

This is where a lot of anti-Israeli government policy sentiment stems from. Their wilfulness and their state terror over the years.

Before Hamas had power....When the moderates were in power in Israel we had peace moves. We had Camp David....and lots of fatah/labour meetings......In general we know what an agreement looks like.

But even the moderates won't make peace with Hamas....I wouldn't make peace with Hamas.....You wouldn't either....Unless you want to make peace with someone who has promised to kill you.

The government of the people of Palestine has to recognise Israel......Otherwise we are stuck here.


Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 11.04pm)


You don't get it. It doesn't matter who is in power on the Palestinian side the extreme right-wing Israelis will not, cannot, make peace because it is contrary to their raison d'être. That is why Rabin was killed by a Jew.

That inflexible stance is made a lot easier by having Hamas.

If the ultra-orthodox and Likud types lost their power base tomorrow and Israeli doves were in power Hamas would suddenly find it more difficult to garner support. But then those doves would be assassinated not by Palestinians but by their own people. The enemy within.


The fact that Hamas were promoted by Mossad to destabilise Palestine at the time is testament to this.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 29 Jul 14 11.32pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 29 Jul 2014 11.21pm

You don't get it. It doesn't matter who is in power on the Palestinian side the extreme right-wing Israelis will not, cannot, make peace because it is contrary to their raison d'être. That is why Rabin was killed by a Jew.

That inflexible stance is made a lot easier by having Hamas.

If the ultra-orthodox and Likud types lost their power base tomorrow and Israeli doves were in power Hamas would suddenly find it more difficult to garner support. But then those doves would be assassinated not by Palestinians but by their own people. The enemy within.


Rather than me not getting it. It is rather that you haven't read my posts.

I've typed up the power dynamic for both Israel and Palestinians quite a few times in this thread.

Even in replies directly to you I'm mentioned that a peace agreement involve civil wars for both sides.

But let me say this once again.

There can be no peace with Hamas in power.....None and there never will be. No western government will ever push for it.

It won't happen and that's a view accepted by pretty much most Israelis. They are happy to continue with continual war....They have accepted it.

While the right hold power in Israel they will push for more than the status quo. They will seek to push the Palestinians out....To continually weaken them.

There are plenty of people in Israel who are against this Gaza action.....But you won't find a significant body of people who think peace with Hamas is possible.....And that is because it isn't.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 11.34pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 29 Jul 14 11.36pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 29 Jul 2014 11.27pm

The fact that Hamas were promoted by Mossad to destabilise Palestine at the time is testament to this.

Stop spreading disinformation.

What Israel promoted was a humanitarian organization. It didn't have a Hamas name, constitution or its modern aims.


Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 11.36pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 30 Jul 14 12.09am

Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation

Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".


Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Ras*** (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."

The Islamists set up orphanages and health clinics, as well as a network of schools, workshops which created employment for women as well as system of financial aid to the poor. And in 1978, they created an "Islamic University" in Gaza. "The military authority was convinced that these activities would weaken both the PLO and the leftist organizations in Gaza." At the end of 1992, there were six hundred mosques in Gaza. Thanks to Israel’s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel’s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks) , the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression.

In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (‘uprising’) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.

Ahmed Yassin was in prison when, the Oslo accords (Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government) were signed in September 1993. The Hamas had rejected Oslo outright. But at that time, 70% of Palestinians had condemned the attacks on Israeli civilians. Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin’s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.

The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.

Quite unexpectedly, Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison ("on humanitarian grounds" where he was serving a life sentence. Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. Worse still: after having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza, where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.

Arafat was helpless in the face of these events. Moreover, because he had supported Saddam Hussein during the1991 Gulf war, (while the Hamas had cautiously abstained from taking sides), the Gulf states decided to cut off their financing of the Palestinian Authority. Meanwhile, between February and April 1998, Sheik Ahmad Yassin was able to raise several hundred million dollars, from those same countries. The the budget of The Hamas was said to be greater than that of the Palestinian Authority. These new sources of funding enabled the Islamists to effectively pursue their various charitable activities. It is estimated that one Palestinian out of three is the recipient of financial aid from the Hamas. And in this regard, Israel has done nothing to curb the inflow of money into the occupied territories.

The Hamas had built its strength through its various acts of sabotage of the peace process, in a way which was compatible with the interests of the Israeli government. In turn, the latter sought in a number of ways, to prevent the application of the Oslo accords. In other words, Hamas was fulfilling the functions for which it was originally created: to prevent the creation of a Palestinian State. And in this regard, Hamas and Ariel Sharon, see eye to eye; they are exactly on the same wave length.


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 30 Jul 14 12.25am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Doesn't answer the post instead we get a link.....Which in his eyes presumably backs up his, 'Israel promotes Hamas'.

Nick, stop spreading misinformation.

Here are the facts.

Israel helped in the setting up of a humanitarian organization.

This organization wasn't called Hamas.
This organization didn't have Hamas's constitution.
Israel, didn't control what its leadership did.

But to Nick Israel set up an organization to kill its own citizens so that it could fight them. The PLO were already fighting them at the time.

Talk about creating an excuse.....Hamas apparently just blindly follow this 'evil' Israeli plan and amazingly become far more radical than Fatah.

Nick you should be with the 'green lizards rule the world' crew.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jul 2014 12.29am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 30 Jul 14 12.32am

I didn't say Israel promotes Hamas now, they helped set up Hamas to destabilise Palestine. The link gives details, there's plenty of other information about this. Yes you are right, I do think Israel have an eye on the oil, just as they have on the oil in the Golan heights.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 30 Jul 14 12.44am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 30 Jul 2014 12.32am

I didn't say Israel promotes Hamas now, they helped set up Hamas to destabilise Palestine. The link gives details, there's plenty of other information about this. Yes you are right, I do think Israel have an eye on the oil, just as they have on the oil in the Golan heights.


You are wrong to say they 'set up Hamas'. That gives the impression that it was the same organization with the same aims.

It wasn't, it became an organization that created its own remit.

Your anti Israeli bias means you think nothing of posting myopic points of view that you find on the Internet....Any rationality isn't applied as far as I can tell.

As for the oil I'm looking forward to calling you out on this when the IDF leave Gaza.

As for the Golan heights. Israel won that during war. They can do with it as they wish...To the victor the spoils...Syria or whoever can win it back if it's so important to them.


Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jul 2014 12.47am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 30 Jul 14 2.06am

Stirling, we're going round in circles (again!) I maintain that were it not for Mossed aiding and influencing muslim groups to form in opposition to Fatah and the PLO, then Hamas would not have the hold it does today. A peaceful Palestine serves no purpose for the religious ideologically driven aims of Netanyahu and his cronies to control holy land West of the river Jordan.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 30 Jul 14 2.33am

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