Confederate Flag

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Moose In the sewer pipe... 21 Jul 14 12.07pm
Quote npn at 21 Jul 2014 8.57am F**k me, is this really on 17 pages? Flag spotted. May possibly offend someone on the other side of the world. Flag removed. Have I missed something? Hit the nail on the head. The only suggestion I can give is to change your profile to view 50 posts a page, then it's only 5 pages. Doesn't make the guff any less pointless but might save your sanity a bit. Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.
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Moose

In the sewer pipe... 21 Jul 14 12.07pm

Quote npn at 21 Jul 2014 8.57am

F**k me, is this really on 17 pages?

Flag spotted.
May possibly offend someone on the other side of the world.
Flag removed.

Have I missed something?

Hit the nail on the head. The only suggestion I can give is to change your profile to view 50 posts a page, then it's only 5 pages. Doesn't make the guff any less pointless but might save your sanity a bit.

Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.

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Kingvagabond London 21 Jul 14 12.10pm
Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 11.56am Quote adrian b at 21 Jul 2014 8.41am No, wrong. Stirlings point is if a person flying a flag does not think the flag, in his opinion, is offensive, then he should be allowed to fly it. By allowing this he must mean all flags and if he objects to the Swaztica and expects me to accept his feelings, then I object to the Confederate flag and expect him to accept mine. Simps peeps My reading of your note is that you are agreeing with me. My point is that I would not want an LTTE flag flown, it has awful connotations even if originally it was simply a flag of protest. And, as I now have been taught that the confederate flag has awful connotations, I would not want it flown as it isn't correct to grossly upset a group of people without an extremely strong rationale to do so. Freedom of individual expression is simply not a strong enough reason. And the fact that half the Americans I spoke to in the chatroom said the flag had nothing to do with racism? Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation @KingvagabondHOL Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........
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Kingvagabond

London 21 Jul 14 12.10pm

Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 11.56am

Quote adrian b at 21 Jul 2014 8.41am

No, wrong. Stirlings point is if a person flying a flag does not think the flag, in his opinion, is offensive, then he should be allowed to fly it. By allowing this he must mean all flags and if he objects to the Swaztica and expects me to accept his feelings, then I object to the Confederate flag and expect him to accept mine. Simps peeps

My reading of your note is that you are agreeing with me. My point is that I would not want an LTTE flag flown, it has awful connotations even if originally it was simply a flag of protest. And, as I now have been taught that the confederate flag has awful connotations, I would not want it flown as it isn't correct to grossly upset a group of people without an extremely strong rationale to do so. Freedom of individual expression is simply not a strong enough reason.

And the fact that half the Americans I spoke to in the chatroom said the flag had nothing to do with racism?

Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation
@KingvagabondHOL

Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am

He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........

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Mapletree Croydon 21 Jul 14 12.16pm
Quote Kingvagabond at 21 Jul 2014 12.10pm Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 11.56am Quote adrian b at 21 Jul 2014 8.41am No, wrong. Stirlings point is if a person flying a flag does not think the flag, in his opinion, is offensive, then he should be allowed to fly it. By allowing this he must mean all flags and if he objects to the Swaztica and expects me to accept his feelings, then I object to the Confederate flag and expect him to accept mine. Simps peeps My reading of your note is that you are agreeing with me. My point is that I would not want an LTTE flag flown, it has awful connotations even if originally it was simply a flag of protest. And, as I now have been taught that the confederate flag has awful connotations, I would not want it flown as it isn't correct to grossly upset a group of people without an extremely strong rationale to do so. Freedom of individual expression is simply not a strong enough reason. And the fact that half the Americans I spoke to in the chatroom said the flag had nothing to do with racism? Good point, so it would only upset a maximum of 159 million people. Ah, sorry Mike, plus 18 million Canadians. Edited by Mapletree (21 Jul 2014 12.19pm)
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Mapletree

Croydon 21 Jul 14 12.16pm

Quote Kingvagabond at 21 Jul 2014 12.10pm

Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 11.56am

Quote adrian b at 21 Jul 2014 8.41am

And the fact that half the Americans I spoke to in the chatroom said the flag had nothing to do with racism?

Good point, so it would only upset a maximum of 159 million people.

Ah, sorry Mike, plus 18 million Canadians.

Edited by Mapletree (21 Jul 2014 12.19pm)

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Kingvagabond London 21 Jul 14 4.38pm
Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 12.16pm Quote Kingvagabond at 21 Jul 2014 12.10pm Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 11.56am Quote adrian b at 21 Jul 2014 8.41am No, wrong. Stirlings point is if a person flying a flag does not think the flag, in his opinion, is offensive, then he should be allowed to fly it. By allowing this he must mean all flags and if he objects to the Swaztica and expects me to accept his feelings, then I object to the Confederate flag and expect him to accept mine. Simps peeps My reading of your note is that you are agreeing with me. My point is that I would not want an LTTE flag flown, it has awful connotations even if originally it was simply a flag of protest. And, as I now have been taught that the confederate flag has awful connotations, I would not want it flown as it isn't correct to grossly upset a group of people without an extremely strong rationale to do so. Freedom of individual expression is simply not a strong enough reason. And the fact that half the Americans I spoke to in the chatroom said the flag had nothing to do with racism? Good point, so it would only upset a maximum of 159 million people. Ah, sorry Mike, plus 18 million Canadians. Edited by Mapletree (21 Jul 2014 12.19pm) And if flags with Eagles on them become associated with racism, or homophobia do we then change our badge? Nickname etc? I mean of course we all know Eagles were a major symbol for the Nazi party. Edited by Kingvagabond (21 Jul 2014 4.40pm) Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation @KingvagabondHOL Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........
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Kingvagabond

London 21 Jul 14 4.38pm

Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 12.16pm

Quote Kingvagabond at 21 Jul 2014 12.10pm

Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 11.56am

Quote adrian b at 21 Jul 2014 8.41am

And the fact that half the Americans I spoke to in the chatroom said the flag had nothing to do with racism?

Good point, so it would only upset a maximum of 159 million people.

Ah, sorry Mike, plus 18 million Canadians.

Edited by Mapletree (21 Jul 2014 12.19pm)

And if flags with Eagles on them become associated with racism, or homophobia do we then change our badge? Nickname etc? I mean of course we all know Eagles were a major symbol for the Nazi party.

Edited by Kingvagabond (21 Jul 2014 4.40pm)

Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation
@KingvagabondHOL

Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am

He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 21 Jul 14 5.16pm
Quote adrian b at 20 Jul 2014 10.45pm I really think it is difficult to understand why a few people should be allowed to do something that could restrict the commercial viability of CPFC. What is more difficult to understand why they should be prevented from doing that and if someone points out the problems this raises, it is just stiring a hornets nest. Be more mature and objective to face the issue for what it is, not a question of the freedom for them to do as they please, more the correct decision to prevent them from harming Palace. It doesn't matter if only one person saw it and didn't understand the implications to Palace's standing, the point is the potential for everyone to see it and find it objectionable. I think that would harm the perception of Palace. You keep mentioning the commercial viability, is it that which is a concern or the actual pontential racial connotation of the flag? the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 21 Jul 14 5.16pm

Quote adrian b at 20 Jul 2014 10.45pm

I really think it is difficult to understand why a few people should be allowed to do something that could restrict the commercial viability of CPFC. What is more difficult to understand why they should be prevented from doing that and if someone points out the problems this raises, it is just stiring a hornets nest. Be more mature and objective to face the issue for what it is, not a question of the freedom for them to do as they please, more the correct decision to prevent them from harming Palace. It doesn't matter if only one person saw it and didn't understand the implications to Palace's standing, the point is the potential for everyone to see it and find it objectionable. I think that would harm the perception of Palace.

You keep mentioning the commercial viability, is it that which is a concern or the actual pontential racial connotation of the flag?

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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Mapletree Croydon 21 Jul 14 5.26pm
Quote Kingvagabond at 21 Jul 2014 4.38pm Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 12.16pm Quote Kingvagabond at 21 Jul 2014 12.10pm Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 11.56am Quote adrian b at 21 Jul 2014 8.41am No, wrong. Stirlings point is if a person flying a flag does not think the flag, in his opinion, is offensive, then he should be allowed to fly it. By allowing this he must mean all flags and if he objects to the Swaztica and expects me to accept his feelings, then I object to the Confederate flag and expect him to accept mine. Simps peeps My reading of your note is that you are agreeing with me. My point is that I would not want an LTTE flag flown, it has awful connotations even if originally it was simply a flag of protest. And, as I now have been taught that the confederate flag has awful connotations, I would not want it flown as it isn't correct to grossly upset a group of people without an extremely strong rationale to do so. Freedom of individual expression is simply not a strong enough reason. And the fact that half the Americans I spoke to in the chatroom said the flag had nothing to do with racism? Good point, so it would only upset a maximum of 159 million people. Ah, sorry Mike, plus 18 million Canadians. Edited by Mapletree (21 Jul 2014 12.19pm) And if flags with Eagles on them become associated with racism, or homophobia do we then change our badge? Nickname etc? I mean of course we all know Eagles were a major symbol for the Nazi party. Edited by Kingvagabond (21 Jul 2014 4.40pm) Yes
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Mapletree

Croydon 21 Jul 14 5.26pm

Quote Kingvagabond at 21 Jul 2014 4.38pm

Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 12.16pm

Quote Kingvagabond at 21 Jul 2014 12.10pm

Quote Mapletree at 21 Jul 2014 11.56am

Quote adrian b at 21 Jul 2014 8.41am

And the fact that half the Americans I spoke to in the chatroom said the flag had nothing to do with racism?

Good point, so it would only upset a maximum of 159 million people.

Ah, sorry Mike, plus 18 million Canadians.

Edited by Mapletree (21 Jul 2014 12.19pm)

And if flags with Eagles on them become associated with racism, or homophobia do we then change our badge? Nickname etc? I mean of course we all know Eagles were a major symbol for the Nazi party.

Edited by Kingvagabond (21 Jul 2014 4.40pm)

Yes

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billyjack Providence RI 21 Jul 14 7.53pm
No American politician in 2014, especially for national office, even a Southern politician, would ever consider flying a Confederate flag at a political rally. They'd immediately be recognized as a backward crackpot racist nut. If a supporter of theirs waved it, the politician would run from an association with that person and that flag. This really should answer the question as to whether the general American public has a problem with it. South Carolina I think still flies it on the state capitol grounds, but no one person "owns" it... and the result of flying it is the boycotting of the state by many groups (the NCAA for example won't hold tournament games there...). Not even a 2014 Tea Party lunatic candidate would choose to fly one of these flags. (this isn't to say that privately these nuts don't hoard these flags in their attics). The only past use that anyone can think of that is not blatantly offensive is a low-budget TV show written for 7-year-olds from 1979, and a rock band from the 70's that died in a plane crash (so their use of it is frozen in time and so they had no opportunity to modernize their thinking over the years and maybe distance themselves from it)(and which had gotten into a lyrics-war with Neil Young over segregation etc)... both of these uses are from 30-35-40 years ago... a time where the Alabama football team had just been integrated (really almost all Southern college teams had no black players til the late 60's early 70's), and when blacks-and-whites couldn't be seen on a date in America, especially the South, without the guy getting the sh!t kicked out of him... Little-known Dukes of Hazzard trivia to lighten this thread up a little: Boss Hogg had the initials "J.D." for Jefferson Davis, and was made to be a corrupt moron... but on one show, his brother appeared, whose initials were "A.L." (for Abraham Lincoln), and who was made to be ethical and a sensible guy. EDIT: Rather than using a swastika comparison, maybe an IRA flag would make this more understandable... if Notre Dame or the orange-and-green Miami Hurricanes flew an IRA flag, I think that would be pretty offensive and inappropriate... though a decent percentage of people wouldn't understand the problem I guess? P.S. Everyone has the right to fly anything they want (everyone has the right to pick their nose in public too). Once the person is told of the sensitivity of the flag, if they still fly it, then people have the right to consider them an idiot. Edited by billyjack (21 Jul 2014 8.10pm)
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billyjack

Providence RI 21 Jul 14 7.53pm

No American politician in 2014, especially for national office, even a Southern politician, would ever consider flying a Confederate flag at a political rally. They'd immediately be recognized as a backward crackpot racist nut. If a supporter of theirs waved it, the politician would run from an association with that person and that flag. This really should answer the question as to whether the general American public has a problem with it.

South Carolina I think still flies it on the state capitol grounds, but no one person "owns" it... and the result of flying it is the boycotting of the state by many groups (the NCAA for example won't hold tournament games there...).

Not even a 2014 Tea Party lunatic candidate would choose to fly one of these flags. (this isn't to say that privately these nuts don't hoard these flags in their attics).

The only past use that anyone can think of that is not blatantly offensive is a low-budget TV show written for 7-year-olds from 1979, and a rock band from the 70's that died in a plane crash (so their use of it is frozen in time and so they had no opportunity to modernize their thinking over the years and maybe distance themselves from it)(and which had gotten into a lyrics-war with Neil Young over segregation etc)... both of these uses are from 30-35-40 years ago... a time where the Alabama football team had just been integrated (really almost all Southern college teams had no black players til the late 60's early 70's), and when blacks-and-whites couldn't be seen on a date in America, especially the South, without the guy getting the sh!t kicked out of him...

Little-known Dukes of Hazzard trivia to lighten this thread up a little: Boss Hogg had the initials "J.D." for Jefferson Davis, and was made to be a corrupt moron... but on one show, his brother appeared, whose initials were "A.L." (for Abraham Lincoln), and who was made to be ethical and a sensible guy.

EDIT: Rather than using a swastika comparison, maybe an IRA flag would make this more understandable... if Notre Dame or the orange-and-green Miami Hurricanes flew an IRA flag, I think that would be pretty offensive and inappropriate... though a decent percentage of people wouldn't understand the problem I guess?

P.S. Everyone has the right to fly anything they want (everyone has the right to pick their nose in public too). Once the person is told of the sensitivity of the flag, if they still fly it, then people have the right to consider them an idiot.

Edited by billyjack (21 Jul 2014 8.10pm)

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SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 21 Jul 14 9.47pm
Quote billyjack at 21 Jul 2014 7.53pm No American politician in 2014, especially for national office, even a Southern politician, would ever consider flying a Confederate flag at a political rally. They'd immediately be recognized as a backward crackpot racist nut. If a supporter of theirs waved it, the politician would run from an association with that person and that flag. This really should answer the question as to whether the general American public has a problem with it. South Carolina I think still flies it on the state capitol grounds, but no one person "owns" it... and the result of flying it is the boycotting of the state by many groups (the NCAA for example won't hold tournament games there...). Not even a 2014 Tea Party lunatic candidate would choose to fly one of these flags. (this isn't to say that privately these nuts don't hoard these flags in their attics). The only past use that anyone can think of that is not blatantly offensive is a low-budget TV show written for 7-year-olds from 1979, and a rock band from the 70's that died in a plane crash (so their use of it is frozen in time and so they had no opportunity to modernize their thinking over the years and maybe distance themselves from it)(and which had gotten into a lyrics-war with Neil Young over segregation etc)... both of these uses are from 30-35-40 years ago... a time where the Alabama football team had just been integrated (really almost all Southern college teams had no black players til the late 60's early 70's), and when blacks-and-whites couldn't be seen on a date in America, especially the South, without the guy getting the sh!t kicked out of him... Little-known Dukes of Hazzard trivia to lighten this thread up a little: Boss Hogg had the initials "J.D." for Jefferson Davis, and was made to be a corrupt moron... but on one show, his brother appeared, whose initials were "A.L." (for Abraham Lincoln), and who was made to be ethical and a sensible guy. EDIT: Rather than using a swastika comparison, maybe an IRA flag would make this more understandable... if Notre Dame or the orange-and-green Miami Hurricanes flew an IRA flag, I think that would be pretty offensive and inappropriate... though a decent percentage of people wouldn't understand the problem I guess? P.S. Everyone has the right to fly anything they want (everyone has the right to pick their nose in public too). Once the person is told of the sensitivity of the flag, if they still fly it, then people have the right to consider them an idiot. Edited by billyjack (21 Jul 2014 8.10pm) Sums things up pretty well. This thread as been a genuine learning experience for me - had no idea the feelings ran so deep but symbols are important things. Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)
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SloveniaDave

Tirana, Albania 21 Jul 14 9.47pm

Quote billyjack at 21 Jul 2014 7.53pm

Not even a 2014 Tea Party lunatic candidate would choose to fly one of these flags. (this isn't to say that privately these nuts don't hoard these flags in their attics).

Sums things up pretty well. This thread as been a genuine learning experience for me - had no idea the feelings ran so deep but symbols are important things.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

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adrian b Landrindod, Wales 22 Jul 14 3.27pm
Yes, my main concern is the commercial loss this could cause. I try not to moralise. If many people are upset by the image Palace present, that will cost Palace lost revenue. And the problem with that?
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adrian b

Landrindod, Wales 22 Jul 14 3.27pm

Yes, my main concern is the commercial loss this could cause. I try not to moralise. If many people are upset by the image Palace present, that will cost Palace lost revenue. And the problem with that?

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EaglesY'all Washington, DC 14 Jul 15 4.22am
Just remembered this thread tonight and was wondering what has happened within the past year. I'm an American who started watching with the start of the NBC contract and decided Palace was going to be my team after it won the 6 points in 2 games in December '13. And it's been fun to watch ever since. I rarely post since y'all know more about the sport than I do. Being mindful of the events in the past few weeks, were people flying Confederate flags during this past season, and was that immediately dealt with? As much as I've enjoyed watching Palace, if this is going to be allowed, than it's a club and a fan base I want no part of. Updates? Thoughts? Edited by EaglesY'all (14 Jul 2015 4.23am)
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EaglesY'all

Washington, DC 14 Jul 15 4.22am

Just remembered this thread tonight and was wondering what has happened within the past year. I'm an American who started watching with the start of the NBC contract and decided Palace was going to be my team after it won the 6 points in 2 games in December '13. And it's been fun to watch ever since. I rarely post since y'all know more about the sport than I do.

Being mindful of the events in the past few weeks, were people flying Confederate flags during this past season, and was that immediately dealt with? As much as I've enjoyed watching Palace, if this is going to be allowed, than it's a club and a fan base I want no part of.

Updates? Thoughts?

Edited by EaglesY'all (14 Jul 2015 4.23am)

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kenbarr Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 14 Jul 15 4.47am
It is a symbol of racism and bigotry in the USA. It is also the unabashed symbol of insurrection against the nation. I don't think Alan Pardew wants to see it at a Palace match given his statements concerning diversity. However, to be fair, there is a difference in that here in the US African American churches are being burned down and nine members of one of the oldest Black churches in the US were murdered by a 21 year old man who worshiped that flag's most obscene meanings. Churches are not burning in the UK as far as I know and no one is shooting up congregations there either. It would be much better if that flag were not seen associated with Crystal Palace, one of the most diverse clubs anywhere including the USA (take a good look at your average MLS club. What don't you see?). Leave that kind of spiteful nonsense to Scumwall. Divorced...And LOVING it! VJRAM Rev. CPFC since Boxing Day 1989 CPFC 2-2 CFC Gregg Berhalter, US International & USMNT Head Coach Jill Ellis, England International & Retired USWNT Head Coach Trevor Francis, International PRAT
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kenbarr

Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 14 Jul 15 4.47am

It is a symbol of racism and bigotry in the USA. It is also the unabashed symbol of insurrection against the nation. I don't think Alan Pardew wants to see it at a Palace match given his statements concerning diversity. However, to be fair, there is a difference in that here in the US African American churches are being burned down and nine members of one of the oldest Black churches in the US were murdered by a 21 year old man who worshiped that flag's most obscene meanings. Churches are not burning in the UK as far as I know and no one is shooting up congregations there either. It would be much better if that flag were not seen associated with Crystal Palace, one of the most diverse clubs anywhere including the USA (take a good look at your average MLS club. What don't you see?). Leave that kind of spiteful nonsense to Scumwall.

Divorced...And LOVING it!
VJRAM Rev.
CPFC since Boxing Day 1989 CPFC 2-2 CFC
Gregg Berhalter, US International & USMNT Head Coach
Jill Ellis, England International & Retired USWNT Head Coach
Trevor Francis, International PRAT

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grump Milford On Sea 14 Jul 15 6.22am
This is a complex issue, personally I don't see the confederate flag as a symbol of racism, although I can't deny certain racist groups have adopted the flag. To me it is the battle flag of the Confederate army in their fight to separate themselves from the union. In that respect it was the flag of ordinary working people most of whom were as downtrodden as the black slaves being abused by wealthy landowners. To me it represents the way of life of these ordinary working people and the freedom they fought for for themselves, nothing to do with race. If you want to ban flags because they have been adopted by racist groups then we should be banning our own Union flag (Union Jack), as this too has been adopted by racist groups such as the National Front, British National Party, as well as the use of the English national flag by the EDL. I don't believe in banning a flag just because a bunch of nut jobs want to use it for their own ends. Stay out the way of the Southern thing.
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grump

Milford On Sea 14 Jul 15 6.22am

This is a complex issue, personally I don't see the confederate flag as a symbol of racism, although I can't deny certain racist groups have adopted the flag. To me it is the battle flag of the Confederate army in their fight to separate themselves from the union. In that respect it was the flag of ordinary working people most of whom were as downtrodden as the black slaves being abused by wealthy landowners. To me it represents the way of life of these ordinary working people and the freedom they fought for for themselves, nothing to do with race.

If you want to ban flags because they have been adopted by racist groups then we should be banning our own Union flag (Union Jack), as this too has been adopted by racist groups such as the National Front, British National Party, as well as the use of the English national flag by the EDL.

I don't believe in banning a flag just because a bunch of nut jobs want to use it for their own ends.

Stay out the way of the Southern thing.

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