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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Aug 14 6.29pm
Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 3.33pm Quote Ouzo Dan at 22 Aug 2014 2.50pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 10.15am Quote Ouzo Dan at 22 Aug 2014 9.36am The IS have eyes on Turkey, they wont stop until everyone obeys their version of Islam. Thank f*** Saddam actually did as he was told and disposed of those chemical weapons. Can you imagine if IS had some of that at its disposal? Edited by Ouzo Dan (22 Aug 2014 9.39am) indeed, though if he had remained in power i doubt Isis would exist. Iraq would have acted to prevent Syrian rebel supply from Iraq, as that part of Iraq was his powerbase. The Sunni Iraq insurgency was piviotal in the Syrian rebel forces logistics Agreed Jamie, The power vacuum that has been left by George's coalition of the willing is what is responsible for all this mess. It doesnt help that we are arming IS in Syria yet bombing them in Iraq.... That does help our arms sales though - in several ways. Technically we're arming Rebel groups in Syria involved in the main uprising, rather than ISIS. I don't doubt some of the weapons end up in ISIS hands though, probably in exchange for fuel. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Aug 14 6.29pm

Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 3.33pm

Quote Ouzo Dan at 22 Aug 2014 2.50pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 10.15am

Quote Ouzo Dan at 22 Aug 2014 9.36am

The IS have eyes on Turkey, they wont stop until everyone obeys their version of Islam.

Thank f*** Saddam actually did as he was told and disposed of those chemical weapons.
Can you imagine if IS had some of that at its disposal?

Edited by Ouzo Dan (22 Aug 2014 9.39am)

indeed, though if he had remained in power i doubt Isis would exist. Iraq would have acted to prevent Syrian rebel supply from Iraq, as that part of Iraq was his powerbase. The Sunni Iraq insurgency was piviotal in the Syrian rebel forces logistics

Agreed Jamie, The power vacuum that has been left by George's coalition of the willing is what is responsible for all this mess.

It doesnt help that we are arming IS in Syria yet bombing them in Iraq....

That does help our arms sales though - in several ways.

Technically we're arming Rebel groups in Syria involved in the main uprising, rather than ISIS. I don't doubt some of the weapons end up in ISIS hands though, probably in exchange for fuel.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 22 Aug 14 8.23pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail. It'll take them a good ten years to secure, of course they're likely to then look at the rest of Iraq. I can't see them going for Turkey and provoking NATO, but Kuwait, Jordon etc would probably be next (although if they went for the rest of Iraqi, Iran would be dragged into it). Saudi, are probably too powerful for ISIS (and ideologically on similar pages) and I doubt they have the capacity to take on Iran. It doesn't have to be secure, certainly not in the same context as a country. Sme on here already saying that we should let them set up a state. Almost immediately they would look at expanding their reach. I wouldn't be surprised that instead of moving south as expected they moved west or at least a feint towards Israel to get the west and the rest if the Muslim world involved. They are no mugs the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 22 Aug 14 8.23pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am

That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail.

It'll take them a good ten years to secure, of course they're likely to then look at the rest of Iraq. I can't see them going for Turkey and provoking NATO, but Kuwait, Jordon etc would probably be next (although if they went for the rest of Iraqi, Iran would be dragged into it). Saudi, are probably too powerful for ISIS (and ideologically on similar pages) and I doubt they have the capacity to take on Iran.

It doesn't have to be secure, certainly not in the same context as a country. Sme on here already saying that we should let them set up a state. Almost immediately they would look at expanding their reach. I wouldn't be surprised that instead of moving south as expected they moved west or at least a feint towards Israel to get the west and the rest if the Muslim world involved.

They are no mugs

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 22 Aug 14 8.31pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.23pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail. It'll take them a good ten years to secure, of course they're likely to then look at the rest of Iraq. I can't see them going for Turkey and provoking NATO, but Kuwait, Jordon etc would probably be next (although if they went for the rest of Iraqi, Iran would be dragged into it). Saudi, are probably too powerful for ISIS (and ideologically on similar pages) and I doubt they have the capacity to take on Iran. It doesn't have to be secure, certainly not in the same context as a country. Sme on here already saying that we should let them set up a state. Almost immediately they would look at expanding their reach. I wouldn't be surprised that instead of moving south as expected they moved west or at least a feint towards Israel to get the west and the rest if the Muslim world involved. They are no mugs If they are no mugs then it is doubtful they would attack Isreal. Been tried by a combination of just about all of the arab neighbouring states with much larger armies than Isreal had - and probably about 100 times greater force than ISIS has - yet failed miserably, lasting only a few days. People seem to think the whole Muslim world is behind ISIS but it really is only a faction of Islam that is involved and there are at least two other maijor factions in Islamic religion and a lot of minor ones. It's a bit like Christianity where we have Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Even within all of those there are hundreds of different sects etc. ISIS is basically for one particualr group of Muslims. It's a bit like the religious wars of the 16th century - where Roman Catholic Spain tried to eliminate good old Protestant blightly and all that jazz. Edited by ASCPFC (22 Aug 2014 8.32pm) Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 22 Aug 14 8.31pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.23pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am

That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail.

They are no mugs

If they are no mugs then it is doubtful they would attack Isreal. Been tried by a combination of just about all of the arab neighbouring states with much larger armies than Isreal had - and probably about 100 times greater force than ISIS has - yet failed miserably, lasting only a few days.
People seem to think the whole Muslim world is behind ISIS but it really is only a faction of Islam that is involved and there are at least two other maijor factions in Islamic religion and a lot of minor ones.
It's a bit like Christianity where we have Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Even within all of those there are hundreds of different sects etc. ISIS is basically for one particualr group of Muslims. It's a bit like the religious wars of the 16th century - where Roman Catholic Spain tried to eliminate good old Protestant blightly and all that jazz.

Edited by ASCPFC (22 Aug 2014 8.32pm)

Red and Blue Army!

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 22 Aug 14 8.37pm
Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.31pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.23pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail. It'll take them a good ten years to secure, of course they're likely to then look at the rest of Iraq. I can't see them going for Turkey and provoking NATO, but Kuwait, Jordon etc would probably be next (although if they went for the rest of Iraqi, Iran would be dragged into it). Saudi, are probably too powerful for ISIS (and ideologically on similar pages) and I doubt they have the capacity to take on Iran. It doesn't have to be secure, certainly not in the same context as a country. Sme on here already saying that we should let them set up a state. Almost immediately they would look at expanding their reach. I wouldn't be surprised that instead of moving south as expected they moved west or at least a feint towards Israel to get the west and the rest if the Muslim world involved. They are no mugs If they are no mugs then it is doubtful they would attack Isreal. Been tried by a combination of just about all of the arab neighbouring states with much larger armies than Isreal had - and probably about 100 times greater force than ISIS has - yet failed miserably, lasting only a few days. People seem to think the whole Muslim world is behind ISIS but it really is only a faction of Islam that is involved and there are at least two other maijor factions in Islamic religion and a lot of minor ones. It's a bit like Christianity where we have Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Even within all of those there are hundreds of different sects etc. ISIS is basically for one particualr group of Muslims. It's a bit like the religious wars of the 16th century - where Roman Catholic Spain tried to eliminate good old Protestant blightly and all that jazz. Edited by ASCPFC (22 Aug 2014 8.32pm) I don't think for one moment that the Muslim world is behind them. In fact it's quite the opposite, however by involving Israel by attack or threat, Hamas will feel emboldened and the whole thing will escalate. I am not saying that they WILL do that but it is feasible. We should be looking at destroying their strongholds which are primarily in Syria and will weaken them significantly and allow Syrian soldiers & rebels as well as Iraqi and Kurdish troops to fight on the ground. the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 22 Aug 14 8.37pm

Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.31pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.23pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am

That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail.

They are no mugs

Edited by ASCPFC (22 Aug 2014 8.32pm)

I don't think for one moment that the Muslim world is behind them. In fact it's quite the opposite, however by involving Israel by attack or threat, Hamas will feel emboldened and the whole thing will escalate.

I am not saying that they WILL do that but it is feasible. We should be looking at destroying their strongholds which are primarily in Syria and will weaken them significantly and allow Syrian soldiers & rebels as well as Iraqi and Kurdish troops to fight on the ground.

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 22 Aug 14 8.45pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.37pm Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.31pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.23pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail. It'll take them a good ten years to secure, of course they're likely to then look at the rest of Iraq. I can't see them going for Turkey and provoking NATO, but Kuwait, Jordon etc would probably be next (although if they went for the rest of Iraqi, Iran would be dragged into it). Saudi, are probably too powerful for ISIS (and ideologically on similar pages) and I doubt they have the capacity to take on Iran. It doesn't have to be secure, certainly not in the same context as a country. Sme on here already saying that we should let them set up a state. Almost immediately they would look at expanding their reach. I wouldn't be surprised that instead of moving south as expected they moved west or at least a feint towards Israel to get the west and the rest if the Muslim world involved. They are no mugs If they are no mugs then it is doubtful they would attack Isreal. Been tried by a combination of just about all of the arab neighbouring states with much larger armies than Isreal had - and probably about 100 times greater force than ISIS has - yet failed miserably, lasting only a few days. People seem to think the whole Muslim world is behind ISIS but it really is only a faction of Islam that is involved and there are at least two other maijor factions in Islamic religion and a lot of minor ones. It's a bit like Christianity where we have Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Even within all of those there are hundreds of different sects etc. ISIS is basically for one particualr group of Muslims. It's a bit like the religious wars of the 16th century - where Roman Catholic Spain tried to eliminate good old Protestant blightly and all that jazz. Edited by ASCPFC (22 Aug 2014 8.32pm) I don't think for one moment that the Muslim world is behind them. In fact it's quite the opposite, however by involving Israel by attack or threat, Hamas will feel emboldened and the whole thing will escalate. I am not saying that they WILL do that but it is feasible. We should be looking at destroying their strongholds which are primarily in Syria and will weaken them significantly and allow Syrian soldiers & rebels as well as Iraqi and Kurdish troops to fight on the ground. I'm really not sure on the religion and politics of HAMAS but I do get the feeling that they are not of the same background as ISIS at all. I could be entirely wrong though, just a feeling. HAMAS are only really anti-Isreal due to a perceived wrong, they are not Islamic extremists looking to carve out a new territory - they want their old one back. As far as I'm aware their main policy and raison d'etre is resistance to Isreali and perceived western policy towards the West Bank and Palestine - not a resistance movement against everything that the whole west stands for. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 22 Aug 14 8.45pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.37pm

Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.31pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.23pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am

That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail.

They are no mugs

Edited by ASCPFC (22 Aug 2014 8.32pm)

I'm really not sure on the religion and politics of HAMAS but I do get the feeling that they are not of the same background as ISIS at all. I could be entirely wrong though, just a feeling. HAMAS are only really anti-Isreal due to a perceived wrong, they are not Islamic extremists looking to carve out a new territory - they want their old one back. As far as I'm aware their main policy and raison d'etre is resistance to Isreali and perceived western policy towards the West Bank and Palestine - not a resistance movement against everything that the whole west stands for.

Red and Blue Army!

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Stirlingsays Online 22 Aug 14 9.10pm
Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.45pm I'm really not sure on the religion and politics of HAMAS but I do get the feeling that they are not of the same background as ISIS at all. I could be entirely wrong though, just a feeling. HAMAS are only really anti-Isreal due to a perceived wrong, they are not Islamic extremists looking to carve out a new territory - they want their old one back. As far as I'm aware their main policy and raison d'etre is resistance to Isreali and perceived western policy towards the West Bank and Palestine - not a resistance movement against everything that the whole west stands for. This reminds me of the romantic idea Americans use to have of the IRA. Checking out what Hamas are about isn't too hard....Read what human rights organizations say about them.....What journalists who have reported from Gaza say about them......Read their charter. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

22 Aug 14 9.10pm

Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.45pm

This reminds me of the romantic idea Americans use to have of the IRA.

Checking out what Hamas are about isn't too hard....Read what human rights organizations say about them.....What journalists who have reported from Gaza say about them......Read their charter.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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legaleagle 22 Aug 14 10.01pm
Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.45pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.37pm Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.31pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.23pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail. It'll take them a good ten years to secure, of course they're likely to then look at the rest of Iraq. I can't see them going for Turkey and provoking NATO, but Kuwait, Jordon etc would probably be next (although if they went for the rest of Iraqi, Iran would be dragged into it). Saudi, are probably too powerful for ISIS (and ideologically on similar pages) and I doubt they have the capacity to take on Iran. It doesn't have to be secure, certainly not in the same context as a country. Sme on here already saying that we should let them set up a state. Almost immediately they would look at expanding their reach. I wouldn't be surprised that instead of moving south as expected they moved west or at least a feint towards Israel to get the west and the rest if the Muslim world involved. They are no mugs If they are no mugs then it is doubtful they would attack Isreal. Been tried by a combination of just about all of the arab neighbouring states with much larger armies than Isreal had - and probably about 100 times greater force than ISIS has - yet failed miserably, lasting only a few days. People seem to think the whole Muslim world is behind ISIS but it really is only a faction of Islam that is involved and there are at least two other maijor factions in Islamic religion and a lot of minor ones. It's a bit like Christianity where we have Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Even within all of those there are hundreds of different sects etc. ISIS is basically for one particualr group of Muslims. It's a bit like the religious wars of the 16th century - where Roman Catholic Spain tried to eliminate good old Protestant blightly and all that jazz. Edited by ASCPFC (22 Aug 2014 8.32pm) I don't think for one moment that the Muslim world is behind them. In fact it's quite the opposite, however by involving Israel by attack or threat, Hamas will feel emboldened and the whole thing will escalate. I am not saying that they WILL do that but it is feasible. We should be looking at destroying their strongholds which are primarily in Syria and will weaken them significantly and allow Syrian soldiers & rebels as well as Iraqi and Kurdish troops to fight on the ground. I'm really not sure on the religion and politics of HAMAS but I do get the feeling that they are not of the same background as ISIS at all. I could be entirely wrong though, just a feeling. HAMAS are only really anti-Isreal due to a perceived wrong, they are not Islamic extremists looking to carve out a new territory - they want their old one back. As far as I'm aware their main policy and raison d'etre is resistance to Isreali and perceived western policy towards the West Bank and Palestine - not a resistance movement against everything that the whole west stands for. HAMAS' charter makes it very clear that their vision is of an Islamic society governed by sharia law. Fathi Hammad, HAMAS Interior Minister, November 2013: "We anticipate further victories, in which we shall liberate our land, Allah willing. We shall liberate our Al-Aqsa Mosque, and our cities and villages, as a prelude to the establishment of the future Islamic Caliphate" However, it is true that their roots are different to those of ISIS.HAMAS come directly out of the Muslim Brotherhood (who include the people kicked out of power in Egypt last year) whereas ISIS come out of the Saudi-based Wahhabi/Salafist strand of Sunni Islam. One possible explanation for HAMAS' desire to up the stakes with Israel recently is to cement their popularity, which had been sagging, in Gaza (and increase it in the West Bank)in the face of a small (but growing) emerging challenge from disaffected ex members now more aligned with ISIS For more re the concept of a "Caliphate": [Link] Edited by legaleagle (22 Aug 2014 10.09pm)
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legaleagle

22 Aug 14 10.01pm

Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.45pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.37pm

Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.31pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 8.23pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Aug 2014 6.28pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 22 Aug 2014 10.13am

That's only their short term goal. Their long term aim is much more far reaching. Power & religious extremism is a dangerous cocktail.

They are no mugs

Edited by ASCPFC (22 Aug 2014 8.32pm)

HAMAS' charter makes it very clear that their vision is of an Islamic society governed by sharia law.

Fathi Hammad, HAMAS Interior Minister, November 2013: "We anticipate further victories, in which we shall liberate our land, Allah willing. We shall liberate our Al-Aqsa Mosque, and our cities and villages, as a prelude to the establishment of the future Islamic Caliphate"

However, it is true that their roots are different to those of ISIS.HAMAS come directly out of the Muslim Brotherhood (who include the people kicked out of power in Egypt last year) whereas ISIS come out of the Saudi-based Wahhabi/Salafist strand of Sunni Islam.

One possible explanation for HAMAS' desire to up the stakes with Israel recently is to cement their popularity, which had been sagging, in Gaza (and increase it in the West Bank)in the face of a small (but growing) emerging challenge from disaffected ex members now more aligned with ISIS

For more re the concept of a "Caliphate":

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (22 Aug 2014 10.09pm)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 23 Aug 14 10.02pm
[Link] Hmmm...
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 23 Aug 14 10.02pm

[Link]

Hmmm...

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Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 23 Aug 14 11.40pm
Quote nickgusset at 23 Aug 2014 10.02pm [Link] Hmmm... An absolute basket case!! Pro USA & Israel
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Jimenez

SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 23 Aug 14 11.40pm

Quote nickgusset at 23 Aug 2014 10.02pm

[Link]

Hmmm...

An absolute basket case!!

Pro USA & Israel

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Stirlingsays Online 24 Aug 14 3.49am
Quote nickgusset at 23 Aug 2014 10.02pm [Link] Hmmm... Nick.....The websites you refer to show a rather worrying trend......In terms of opinion validation there will always be websites that will reflect the views we feel.....People tend to find what they go looking for mate....It doesn't make it correct of course. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

24 Aug 14 3.49am

Quote nickgusset at 23 Aug 2014 10.02pm

[Link]

Hmmm...

Nick.....The websites you refer to show a rather worrying trend......In terms of opinion validation there will always be websites that will reflect the views we feel.....People tend to find what they go looking for mate....It doesn't make it correct of course.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 24 Aug 14 7.30am
"The Axis of Evil" - All supposedly the main terrorist three in the US war on terror. Iran, Iraq and North Korea. Except they weren't really, were they? US officials still too cowardly to out the real problem guys - Saudi. Would rather lie and castigate others than present reality. That guy in Nick's link may be a nutcase but he has hit more than one nail on the head. Edited by Kermit8 (24 Aug 2014 7.34am) Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 24 Aug 14 7.30am

"The Axis of Evil" - All supposedly the main terrorist three in the US war on terror.

Iran, Iraq and North Korea. Except they weren't really, were they?

US officials still too cowardly to out the real problem guys - Saudi. Would rather lie and castigate others than present reality.

That guy in Nick's link may be a nutcase but he has hit more than one nail on the head.

Edited by Kermit8 (24 Aug 2014 7.34am)

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 24 Aug 14 1.12pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Aug 2014 9.10pm Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.45pm I'm really not sure on the religion and politics of HAMAS but I do get the feeling that they are not of the same background as ISIS at all. I could be entirely wrong though, just a feeling. HAMAS are only really anti-Isreal due to a perceived wrong, they are not Islamic extremists looking to carve out a new territory - they want their old one back. As far as I'm aware their main policy and raison d'etre is resistance to Isreali and perceived western policy towards the West Bank and Palestine - not a resistance movement against everything that the whole west stands for. This reminds me of the romantic idea Americans use to have of the IRA. Checking out what Hamas are about isn't too hard....Read what human rights organizations say about them.....What journalists who have reported from Gaza say about them......Read their charter. The original IRA didn't want much more than NI to be part of the Republic. I don't agree with anything they did but they wouldn't have carried on terror attaks if they had achieved their objective. They weren't looking for the whole world to be a Catholic state or anything like that. They probably would have stock-piled their arms just in case and as is the case today, the more radical element would go into organised crime. Really here, you have backed up my points quite well - I don't beleive HAMAS would be doing anything if there was a deal done with them that gave them the sovereign territory they want. HAMAS have not hijacked planes, or attacked the olympics or anything other than attacked Isreal - who they see as occupying their territory - but now they are the bad guys whilst the PLO are seemigly alright. If it wasn't so serious it would be funny. You are going to come back at me with their charter but what kind of charter do you expect them to have? A nice cuddly one which thanks the West for all it's help - or perhaps a recognition of a state that has never recognised any of their rights? Perhaps they would tone down the Muslim stuff but that may make them seem weak to people who are at their wits end with even the most basic parts of everyday life. Their charter aims for the very best and most radical they could hope for, just like the IRA if they were treated differently they may well feel like negotiation was a good option. You are unlikely to negotiate, however, if you know you will be kdnapped or murdered if you turn up to talks in person. Edited by ASCPFC (24 Aug 2014 1.17pm) Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 24 Aug 14 1.12pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Aug 2014 9.10pm

Quote ASCPFC at 22 Aug 2014 8.45pm

This reminds me of the romantic idea Americans use to have of the IRA.

Checking out what Hamas are about isn't too hard....Read what human rights organizations say about them.....What journalists who have reported from Gaza say about them......Read their charter.

The original IRA didn't want much more than NI to be part of the Republic. I don't agree with anything they did but they wouldn't have carried on terror attaks if they had achieved their objective. They weren't looking for the whole world to be a Catholic state or anything like that. They probably would have stock-piled their arms just in case and as is the case today, the more radical element would go into organised crime. Really here, you have backed up my points quite well - I don't beleive HAMAS would be doing anything if there was a deal done with them that gave them the sovereign territory they want. HAMAS have not hijacked planes, or attacked the olympics or anything other than attacked Isreal - who they see as occupying their territory - but now they are the bad guys whilst the PLO are seemigly alright. If it wasn't so serious it would be funny. You are going to come back at me with their charter but what kind of charter do you expect them to have? A nice cuddly one which thanks the West for all it's help - or perhaps a recognition of a state that has never recognised any of their rights? Perhaps they would tone down the Muslim stuff but that may make them seem weak to people who are at their wits end with even the most basic parts of everyday life. Their charter aims for the very best and most radical they could hope for, just like the IRA if they were treated differently they may well feel like negotiation was a good option. You are unlikely to negotiate, however, if you know you will be kdnapped or murdered if you turn up to talks in person.

Edited by ASCPFC (24 Aug 2014 1.17pm)

Red and Blue Army!

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