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Ched Evans saga part ???

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Jan 15 3.17pm

Quote Ray in Houston at 09 Jan 2015 2.59pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 09 Jan 2015 12.07pm
I would like this judge to have been in charge of my drink drive conviction.

At the point I set off in my car p1ssed as a parrot I had no idea if I was doing the right thing and was totally oblivious to the dangers to myself or others because I was so drunk.

The magistrate I had quite reasonably and fairly decided to disqualify me from driving and give me a hefty fine.... and a lengthy lecture on my future responsibilities and the absurdity of my actions and the effect it could have on others.

I suggest that this girl brought all of this on herself and the fact that she was drunk was no excuse.

She cannot remember what she did and it can be argued that she led both men on.

Most definitely an unsafe conviction.


I hate to rain on your parade, but you made the decision to drink - knowing that you'd driven - before you were drunk. That's where your conviction comes from.

In her case, she was deemed to have given consent to have sex with Donaldson by dint of agreeing to go back to his hotel room with him. Evans just showed up and has his way.

This clear (and legal) difference between the two has been repeated over and over in this thread, yet plenty of you still don't - or choose not to - understand it.

Indeed, the decision to drink having driven is unreasonable, its sufficient to demonstrate intent, because you drove to a pub / bar and ordered a drink.

The key to a defense around this, is 'reasonable'. Its not reasonable to assume that someone who drove to a pub did not also intend to drink.

If your drink had been spiked, and that took you over the limit and you could demonstrate that had occurred, you wouldn't be guilty of a crime (no guilty mind).

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Jan 15 3.18pm

Quote Ray in Houston at 09 Jan 2015 3.01pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am
If she wasn't raped but intended both to be convicted for her financial gain then she had tricked both....Hence, 'had'.


What financial gain? She is on the run, unable to live a normal life and trying desperately to stay anonymous while Evans' apologists hound her and "out" her new identity as soon as she gets one.

How the hell is there any financial gain for her in this?

Especially as she doesn't seem to have sold her story, meanwhile Evans has been all over the press.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View derby eagle's Profile derby eagle Flag Derby 09 Jan 15 3.21pm Send a Private Message to derby eagle Add derby eagle as a friend

Quote EagleEyedAlbert at 09 Jan 2015 3.01pm

Quote derby eagle at 09 Jan 2015 2.24pm

Now Bruce is piping up as if he was some legal expert. What a detestable vvanker that guy is.


Whilst i wholeheateredly agree with your second sentence, is he not allowed an opinion?


Yes...but as a "role model" he should probably stick to what he is good at. And that isn't establishing the veracity of legal arguments and law of the land.

 

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 09 Jan 15 3.24pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Jan 2015 3.18pm

Quote Ray in Houston at 09 Jan 2015 3.01pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am
If she wasn't raped but intended both to be convicted for her financial gain then she had tricked both....Hence, 'had'.


What financial gain? She is on the run, unable to live a normal life and trying desperately to stay anonymous while Evans' apologists hound her and "out" her new identity as soon as she gets one.

How the hell is there any financial gain for her in this?

Especially as she doesn't seem to have sold her story, meanwhile Evans has been all over the press.



I dare say he'd rather he wasn't and would be amazed if he's been paid one penny to be in said press.

 


Optimistic as ever

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Jan 15 3.37pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am


If she wasn't raped but intended both to be convicted for her financial gain then she had tricked both....Hence, 'had'.

In which case wouldn't she have had a better case, i.e. than being drunk of her own consent. Bear in mind she didn't met Evans until after she was in the room and had sex with Donaldson.

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am

I'm pointing out the absurdity of the judgement. The idea that you can imply consent from minutes before intercourse takes place when you aren't there.

It not about consent, she was incapable of consent. Its about whether it is reasonable of the defendents to believe she had consented. For Actus and Mens rae to be qualified, 'guilty mind' must be demonstrated - If Donaldson's actions were those of a reasonable man then he is innocent (or at least not guilty because its not beyond reasonable doubt for him to have believed consent was genuine.

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am

This girl says she wasn't aware what was going on.....How can that be consent? I'm pointing out the illogical and arrogant nature of the assumption.

See above.

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am


It's stupid. Consent can't be counted upon unless you are actually there.....It's a guess. No one can state that a girl reasonably agrees to sexual intercourse unless they are the girl themself or they are watching it.

No one doubts she said yes, what is in doubt is that her capacity to reliably give consent was diminished. Which means McDonald and Evans are required to at least demonstrate they believed consent (ie your word isn't just enough).

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am

This girl said neither had consent.....The court delivered the most illogical judgement possible......They convicted one and freed another based purely on assumption.

No the prosecution demonstrated that she was not capable of giving reasonable consent. Her own statement was that she did not remember the events in question.

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am


What is far more likely to me is that she was either genuinely raped or she has lied for gain.

She was, by the definition of the offence, and the requirements of british law, raped by Ched Evans, who had sex without her consent, and could show no basis on which it was reasonable for him to believe she could give consent.

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am

I cannot know which is actually true but I suspect from what I gather that this isn't a safe conviction.

It safe enough that his appeal was turned down at the first hurdle because it offered no new evidence that spoke to the question of the conviction (Ironically if he said he didn't have sex with her, he'd have been found not guilty - as there was no evidence of sexual activity between Evans and the victim, other than his and Donaldsons statements.

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am

Those who claim with confidence to know that this girl was definitely raped are in my view way over confident in their assumptions. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2015 11.49am)

Certainty in convictions is very rare, even where confessions of guilt have been produced, there have been cases where people were found to have been not guilty.

Even in the most nailed on conviction, there must exist a tiny chance that its not valid.

Its probable beyond reason that Evans raped that girl, and that he went to that room specifically to have sex with the victim, a woman he had never met or had any grounds to assume wanted to have sex with him.

It is not reasonable by his actions to think he could, as a reasonable man, have believed she had consented.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Jan 15 3.40pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Jan 2015 3.24pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Jan 2015 3.18pm

Quote Ray in Houston at 09 Jan 2015 3.01pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am
If she wasn't raped but intended both to be convicted for her financial gain then she had tricked both....Hence, 'had'.


What financial gain? She is on the run, unable to live a normal life and trying desperately to stay anonymous while Evans' apologists hound her and "out" her new identity as soon as she gets one.

How the hell is there any financial gain for her in this?

Especially as she doesn't seem to have sold her story, meanwhile Evans has been all over the press.



I dare say he'd rather he wasn't and would be amazed if he's been paid one penny to be in said press.

He's used the publicity of the case to pursue a legal fund and support towards appeal and a case review. Not all gain is purely financial.

The victim of a crime is generally allowed to sell their story once the case has been heard.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View Canterbury Palace's Profile Canterbury Palace Flag Whitstable 09 Jan 15 4.26pm Send a Private Message to Canterbury Palace Add Canterbury Palace as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Jan 2015 12.30pm

Quote Kingvagabond at 08 Jan 2015 3.05pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Jan 2015 11.32am

Quote Kingvagabond at 08 Jan 2015 11.14am

Quote derby eagle at 08 Jan 2015 7.40am

Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Jan 2015 2.06am

Being someone who helped run a pub for five years in their twenties and spent a time as a bouncer in nightclubs and in both instances saw quite a bit of stuff I'm inherently suspicious of the certainties that Jamie and others have as too this ladies capabilities.

This case to me is rife with possibilities.....What I can know from the evidence is that this guy Ched is a t***...I can say that it's possible that he raped this girl. What I can't say with reasonable certainty is that he did.....From what I've heard of the evidence this conviction should never have stood.

But it's atypical with where the courts are heading with rape.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2015 2.17am)


A jury seemed quite comfortable convicting him and they sat through all of the evidence. No one here did. There is jo new evidence, so there is very little chance of this being overturned and neither should it be. Unless of course every time a conviction is against our own inclination it gets overturned if the majority of the public don't like it as well. The arrogant cvnt is guilty, get over it and move on.

Here's the ironic thing, they didn't seem quite comfortable convicting him. There was no unanimous decision and so jury was informed that he would accept majority verdict. They were then told that both cases were completely different and despite it being a joint verdict they could give different outcomes for Donaldson and Evans. The judges summing up and directions to the jury was somewhat loaded and this was one of the things the original appeal focussed on.
Eventually jury came back with unanimous decisions on both, innocent for Donaldson, guilty for Evans and thus avoided going into a fourth week.

Personally, its why I feel it may be time to go to trial by panel of judges as I feel they would achieve safer convictions or acquittals based on evidence not 'feelings'.

Which basically suggests that the jury were undecided on Donaldson, not Evans. And that hits a key point of law.

Donaldson could reasonably be said to have believed he had consent by the actions prior to sex (i.e meeting a girl, having a few drinks and going back to the hotel). Evans doesn't have that capacity.

Its an important distinction, because it establishes the importance of the timeline of events.

The case hinges on whether it would be reasonable for Evan to believe he had consent (once it was established that the victim was intoxicated). His actions prior to obtaining consent are key to his conviction - There is no reasonable case to accept that he could have believed he had informed consent by actions of the victim or his own.


And this is why I have an issue with it. Theres so much misinformation going around its ridiculous. The complainant met Donaldson on his way back to the hotel. They were both in the Pizza place but not together. They didn't drink together. She bumped into him on his way to get a cab. He said 'Where are you going' she said 'where are you going' he said 'To my hotel' she said 'I'm coming with you'.

She'd had 2 glasses of wine, 4 double vodka lemonades and a shot of Sambucca. I have had this amount several times and gone home with girls about the same level of drunkenness as me. Have I raped them? Have they raped me? Have we raped each other? Safest thing in future is to carry a pocket breathalyzer and a stack of consent forms. Cos then I won't look like a rapist

Ok, misinformation, however it is still reasonable that given that exchange Donaldson could be judge to have reason to believe that by word and actions consent had been agreed.

You haven't raped them, unless maybe they'd gone home with your roommate, drunk, and then you'd borrowed his front door key, let yourself into the house and had sex with them and then sneaked out the back door.

Then you could arguably be a rapist.



I don't think it is reasonable. You previously argued this...

"McDonald could reasonably be said to have believed he had consent by the actions prior to sex (i.e meeting a girl, having a few drinks and going back to the hotel). Evans doesn't have that capacity."

Which relies on the false notion that McDonald spent some time drinking with her first rather than the actual sequence of the events which saw them meet randomly in the street and immediately share a taxi back to the hotel.

The significance of this is that suggesting that McDonald had consent because he met her when she was in a more sober state and then spent time drinking with her is incredibly different to suggesting he had consent just because she agreed to get in the taxi, at which point she was as intoxicated as she was going to get that night. So why should her word and consent be any more believable in the street than it would be in a hotel room half an hour later? On both occasions she was meeting them for the first time.

She herself admitted to remembering nothing from the point she left the club she was in until the following morning so can't explicitly claim that she didn't say yes to Evans. She also performed oral sex on him before they had full sex so she wasn't unconscious either which would have been a different story. I still see nothing to make me believe they shouldn't have both received the same verdict and frankly from what I've read I'm still leaning more towards innocent than guilty.

 


We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

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View the despotic banana's Profile the despotic banana Flag Dept. of Baboon Maintenance 09 Jan 15 4.30pm Send a Private Message to the despotic banana Add the despotic banana as a friend

Quote derby eagle at 09 Jan 2015 2.24pm

Now Bruce is piping up as if he was some legal expert. What a detestable vvanker that guy is.


I can see why Bruce empathises with Evans - after all, we Palace fans all woke up to find that Bruce had f*cked us and done a runner.

 


Ask me about Ronald de Boer.

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View Ray in Houston's Profile Ray in Houston Flag Houston 09 Jan 15 5.11pm Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston Add Ray in Houston as a friend

Quote Stuk at 09 Jan 2015 3.24pm
I dare say he'd rather he wasn't and would be amazed if he's been paid one penny to be in said press.


He is trying to preserve / continue a very high-paying career as a football player. He has much more to gain than she does.

 


We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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View Sg Bilko's Profile Sg Bilko Flag Deurne Holland 09 Jan 15 5.32pm Send a Private Message to Sg Bilko Add Sg Bilko as a friend

Quote Canterbury Palace at 09 Jan 2015 4.26pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Jan 2015 12.30pm

Quote Kingvagabond at 08 Jan 2015 3.05pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Jan 2015 11.32am

Quote Kingvagabond at 08 Jan 2015 11.14am

Quote derby eagle at 08 Jan 2015 7.40am

Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Jan 2015 2.06am

Being someone who helped run a pub for five years in their twenties and spent a time as a bouncer in nightclubs and in both instances saw quite a bit of stuff I'm inherently suspicious of the certainties that Jamie and others have as too this ladies capabilities.

This case to me is rife with possibilities.....What I can know from the evidence is that this guy Ched is a t***...I can say that it's possible that he raped this girl. What I can't say with reasonable certainty is that he did.....From what I've heard of the evidence this conviction should never have stood.

But it's atypical with where the courts are heading with rape.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2015 2.17am)


A jury seemed quite comfortable convicting him and they sat through all of the evidence. No one here did. There is jo new evidence, so there is very little chance of this being overturned and neither should it be. Unless of course every time a conviction is against our own inclination it gets overturned if the majority of the public don't like it as well. The arrogant cvnt is guilty, get over it and move on.

Here's the ironic thing, they didn't seem quite comfortable convicting him. There was no unanimous decision and so jury was informed that he would accept majority verdict. They were then told that both cases were completely different and despite it being a joint verdict they could give different outcomes for Donaldson and Evans. The judges summing up and directions to the jury was somewhat loaded and this was one of the things the original appeal focussed on.
Eventually jury came back with unanimous decisions on both, innocent for Donaldson, guilty for Evans and thus avoided going into a fourth week.

Personally, its why I feel it may be time to go to trial by panel of judges as I feel they would achieve safer convictions or acquittals based on evidence not 'feelings'.

Which basically suggests that the jury were undecided on Donaldson, not Evans. And that hits a key point of law.

Donaldson could reasonably be said to have believed he had consent by the actions prior to sex (i.e meeting a girl, having a few drinks and going back to the hotel). Evans doesn't have that capacity.

Its an important distinction, because it establishes the importance of the timeline of events.

The case hinges on whether it would be reasonable for Evan to believe he had consent (once it was established that the victim was intoxicated). His actions prior to obtaining consent are key to his conviction - There is no reasonable case to accept that he could have believed he had informed consent by actions of the victim or his own.


And this is why I have an issue with it. Theres so much misinformation going around its ridiculous. The complainant met Donaldson on his way back to the hotel. They were both in the Pizza place but not together. They didn't drink together. She bumped into him on his way to get a cab. He said 'Where are you going' she said 'where are you going' he said 'To my hotel' she said 'I'm coming with you'.

She'd had 2 glasses of wine, 4 double vodka lemonades and a shot of Sambucca. I have had this amount several times and gone home with girls about the same level of drunkenness as me. Have I raped them? Have they raped me? Have we raped each other? Safest thing in future is to carry a pocket breathalyzer and a stack of consent forms. Cos then I won't look like a rapist

Ok, misinformation, however it is still reasonable that given that exchange Donaldson could be judge to have reason to believe that by word and actions consent had been agreed.

You haven't raped them, unless maybe they'd gone home with your roommate, drunk, and then you'd borrowed his front door key, let yourself into the house and had sex with them and then sneaked out the back door.

Then you could arguably be a rapist.



I don't think it is reasonable. You previously argued this...

"McDonald could reasonably be said to have believed he had consent by the actions prior to sex (i.e meeting a girl, having a few drinks and going back to the hotel). Evans doesn't have that capacity."

Which relies on the false notion that McDonald spent some time drinking with her first rather than the actual sequence of the events which saw them meet randomly in the street and immediately share a taxi back to the hotel.

The significance of this is that suggesting that McDonald had consent because he met her when she was in a more sober state and then spent time drinking with her is incredibly different to suggesting he had consent just because she agreed to get in the taxi, at which point she was as intoxicated as she was going to get that night. So why should her word and consent be any more believable in the street than it would be in a hotel room half an hour later? On both occasions she was meeting them for the first time.

She herself admitted to remembering nothing from the point she left the club she was in until the following morning so can't explicitly claim that she didn't say yes to Evans. She also performed oral sex on him before they had full sex so she wasn't unconscious either which would have been a different story. I still see nothing to make me believe they shouldn't have both received the same verdict and frankly from what I've read I'm still leaning more towards innocent than guilty.

Who's McDonald.

 

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View Canterbury Palace's Profile Canterbury Palace Flag Whitstable 09 Jan 15 5.40pm Send a Private Message to Canterbury Palace Add Canterbury Palace as a friend

Quote Sg Bilko at 09 Jan 2015 5.32pm

Quote Canterbury Palace at 09 Jan 2015 4.26pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Jan 2015 12.30pm

Quote Kingvagabond at 08 Jan 2015 3.05pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Jan 2015 11.32am

Quote Kingvagabond at 08 Jan 2015 11.14am

Quote derby eagle at 08 Jan 2015 7.40am

Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Jan 2015 2.06am

Being someone who helped run a pub for five years in their twenties and spent a time as a bouncer in nightclubs and in both instances saw quite a bit of stuff I'm inherently suspicious of the certainties that Jamie and others have as too this ladies capabilities.

This case to me is rife with possibilities.....What I can know from the evidence is that this guy Ched is a t***...I can say that it's possible that he raped this girl. What I can't say with reasonable certainty is that he did.....From what I've heard of the evidence this conviction should never have stood.

But it's atypical with where the courts are heading with rape.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2015 2.17am)


A jury seemed quite comfortable convicting him and they sat through all of the evidence. No one here did. There is jo new evidence, so there is very little chance of this being overturned and neither should it be. Unless of course every time a conviction is against our own inclination it gets overturned if the majority of the public don't like it as well. The arrogant cvnt is guilty, get over it and move on.

Here's the ironic thing, they didn't seem quite comfortable convicting him. There was no unanimous decision and so jury was informed that he would accept majority verdict. They were then told that both cases were completely different and despite it being a joint verdict they could give different outcomes for Donaldson and Evans. The judges summing up and directions to the jury was somewhat loaded and this was one of the things the original appeal focussed on.
Eventually jury came back with unanimous decisions on both, innocent for Donaldson, guilty for Evans and thus avoided going into a fourth week.

Personally, its why I feel it may be time to go to trial by panel of judges as I feel they would achieve safer convictions or acquittals based on evidence not 'feelings'.

Which basically suggests that the jury were undecided on Donaldson, not Evans. And that hits a key point of law.

Donaldson could reasonably be said to have believed he had consent by the actions prior to sex (i.e meeting a girl, having a few drinks and going back to the hotel). Evans doesn't have that capacity.

Its an important distinction, because it establishes the importance of the timeline of events.

The case hinges on whether it would be reasonable for Evan to believe he had consent (once it was established that the victim was intoxicated). His actions prior to obtaining consent are key to his conviction - There is no reasonable case to accept that he could have believed he had informed consent by actions of the victim or his own.


And this is why I have an issue with it. Theres so much misinformation going around its ridiculous. The complainant met Donaldson on his way back to the hotel. They were both in the Pizza place but not together. They didn't drink together. She bumped into him on his way to get a cab. He said 'Where are you going' she said 'where are you going' he said 'To my hotel' she said 'I'm coming with you'.

She'd had 2 glasses of wine, 4 double vodka lemonades and a shot of Sambucca. I have had this amount several times and gone home with girls about the same level of drunkenness as me. Have I raped them? Have they raped me? Have we raped each other? Safest thing in future is to carry a pocket breathalyzer and a stack of consent forms. Cos then I won't look like a rapist

Ok, misinformation, however it is still reasonable that given that exchange Donaldson could be judge to have reason to believe that by word and actions consent had been agreed.

You haven't raped them, unless maybe they'd gone home with your roommate, drunk, and then you'd borrowed his front door key, let yourself into the house and had sex with them and then sneaked out the back door.

Then you could arguably be a rapist.



I don't think it is reasonable. You previously argued this...

"McDonald could reasonably be said to have believed he had consent by the actions prior to sex (i.e meeting a girl, having a few drinks and going back to the hotel). Evans doesn't have that capacity."

Which relies on the false notion that McDonald spent some time drinking with her first rather than the actual sequence of the events which saw them meet randomly in the street and immediately share a taxi back to the hotel.

The significance of this is that suggesting that McDonald had consent because he met her when she was in a more sober state and then spent time drinking with her is incredibly different to suggesting he had consent just because she agreed to get in the taxi, at which point she was as intoxicated as she was going to get that night. So why should her word and consent be any more believable in the street than it would be in a hotel room half an hour later? On both occasions she was meeting them for the first time.

She herself admitted to remembering nothing from the point she left the club she was in until the following morning so can't explicitly claim that she didn't say yes to Evans. She also performed oral sex on him before they had full sex so she wasn't unconscious either which would have been a different story. I still see nothing to make me believe they shouldn't have both received the same verdict and frankly from what I've read I'm still leaning more towards innocent than guilty.

Who's McDonald.

[Link]

 


We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 09 Jan 15 7.53pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Jan 2015 3.40pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Jan 2015 3.24pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Jan 2015 3.18pm

Quote Ray in Houston at 09 Jan 2015 3.01pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jan 2015 11.44am
If she wasn't raped but intended both to be convicted for her financial gain then she had tricked both....Hence, 'had'.


What financial gain? She is on the run, unable to live a normal life and trying desperately to stay anonymous while Evans' apologists hound her and "out" her new identity as soon as she gets one.

How the hell is there any financial gain for her in this?

Especially as she doesn't seem to have sold her story, meanwhile Evans has been all over the press.



I dare say he'd rather he wasn't and would be amazed if he's been paid one penny to be in said press.

He's used the publicity of the case to pursue a legal fund and support towards appeal and a case review. Not all gain is purely financial.

The victim of a crime is generally allowed to sell their story once the case has been heard.


What do you mean by pursue a legal fund? Do you have think he's been paid in kind? As the saying goes.

He wouldn't be poor because he's been inside/not working and seems to have financial support from his bird's dad on top of that.

He can't appeal and the case review I'd presume to be without massive cost.

 


Optimistic as ever

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