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April 20 2024 1.48pm

Are YOU a "good" person?

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View reborn's Profile reborn 16 Mar 15 12.50pm Send a Private Message to reborn Add reborn as a friend

Quote Hoof Hearted at 15 Mar 2015 5.03pm

Quote reborn at 15 Mar 2015 3.20pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 14 Mar 2015 9.28pm

Quote reborn at 14 Mar 2015 6.40pm

This thread is awesome

Pikester as Superfly has pointed out it was Luton, and like most people I was agnostic, not atheist


I'd like to wager that in two years time you'll be an orthodox Jew and a Spurs fan!

Whats the bet?


100 shekels....... LOL


I see your 100 shekels and raise you a goat

 


My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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legaleagle Flag 16 Mar 15 10.09pm

Quote reborn at 15 Mar 2015 3.26pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 10 Mar 2015 8.48pm

Quote reborn at 10 Mar 2015 4.43pm

Quote Catfish at 10 Mar 2015 3.15pm

Reborn - why do your views (and those of other religious believers) deserve or demand respect? Do your political views deserve equally unquestioned respect? If I said that I devoutly and sincerely believed that trees and ponds contained nature gods would you patiently acknowledge my spritual journey or would you dismiss it as baloney?


Well firstly how and why you respect others beliefs depends on your own value system. Secondly because my own beliefs are consistent with those shared by billions through history.

I would wager that the scenario you outline above would put you in a very small camp.

So would most things, fortunately ideas are a historical progression of discourse resolution. Religion itself included. The idea of Christianity, for instance, required a number of much later historical developments - Most notably Emperor Constatine, the death of Julian, the rise of Catholicism and Pope Innocent the I (establishment of a cannoncial biblical account) and of course the first council of Nicea

Then you have Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, plus of course you have to have the protestant declaration, Martin Luther and Calvin, before you can even really start to think about a foundation of modern Christianity.

Very early Christian faiths were very different, almost completely alien to the modern worshiper - Massive changes in theology and philosophy, occurred before the idea of a 'Christianity' was even considered - and even then that only really applies to Western Christianity.

A Muslim scholar once said to me, that its not as important to believe, but to try to understand, that everything you learn brings you closer to God's creation. But that you will never truly understand it, only be enriched by it.


Not true Jamie, the formalisation of structure and doctrine and indeed 'Religion' around Christianity relied on those events, however the idea of Christianity was born way before that, and has been recorded by historians of the time, most notably Josephus and Tacitus.

Jesus didn't come to start a Religion, men did that and that's what went wrong.


I agree.There are those who might say Jesus'intention was not to start a religion but rather that he was of his time and place and wanted the Jewish people to get back to what he viewed as the essence and core of the religion,rather than the corrupted and institutionalised form it had taken...

Other men (sorry I disagree with you about Son of God etc) subsequently started a new religion...

 

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View reborn's Profile reborn 17 Mar 15 8.40am Send a Private Message to reborn Add reborn as a friend

As a 'believer', and student of the bible it is very clear to me that Jesus came to wipe away the old and start the new.

God now sees us through the eyes of Jesus, and Jesus sees us as worth dying for. Put your faith in Jesus and start a relationship with God.

Now I am not here to persuade others to my point of view, last I heard no on had ever come to Christ as the result of a debate on Football Message board LOL

Indeed in my experience, people only do so when they observe amazing and positive changes in someone close to then, which piques their interest, BUT in all cases to truly come to the belief that Jesus is Lord etc requires somewhat of a spiritual epiphany.

Without that then its just a nice idea, and yes it sounds to good to be true, because actually it is, when compared to the things of this world, quite frankly its ridiculous.

But its not of this world...and there we are again, a believers point of view which sounds ludicrous to someone who doesn't believe.

I totally respect and get that many think its ridiculous, of course. As such I am not here to try and preach to anyone and convert even less, I have simply consistently pointed out that insults fly one way, defended the faith against lazy generalisations and recounted my own experiences.

 


My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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View dannyh's Profile dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Mar 15 9.22am Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

I have nothing but respect for people who can look at scientific fact in the face and ignore it.

I pointed out on another thread that a mainstay of the christian faith is that the Earth is about 6000 years old.

It isnt. It is billions of years old.

Thats Genesis discounted as codswallop with out even breaking out the big guns.

Thing is I dont see anymore evidence that the bible is real, than there is for fairys at the bottom of your garden.

As forthe big question about God, I don't know. I would like to think the universe is not just a fluke and that some one/thing is trying to keep it all going. But the bible ..nope not having it.

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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View reborn's Profile reborn 17 Mar 15 9.24am Send a Private Message to reborn Add reborn as a friend

See my answer in other thread

 


My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 17 Mar 15 9.41am

Quote dannyh at 17 Mar 2015 9.22am

I have nothing but respect for people who can look at scientific fact in the face and ignore it.

I pointed out on another thread that a mainstay of the christian faith is that the Earth is about 6000 years old.

It isnt. It is billions of years old.

Thats Genesis discounted as codswallop with out even breaking out the big guns.

Thing is I dont see anymore evidence that the bible is real, than there is for fairys at the bottom of your garden.

As forthe big question about God, I don't know. I would like to think the universe is not just a fluke and that some one/thing is trying to keep it all going. But the bible ..nope not having it.

In fairness, to the bible and Genesis, at no point does it state the age of the earth. That's a Christian Fundermentalist assertion, generated by simply counting up the age of everyone in the bible. Its largely considered bollocks by almost every Christian sect and movement.

As for Fairies at the bottom of the garden, that's a 18th/19th century invention. The real faeries are a lot less benevolent and friendly than those of the Romantic / Victorian revival.

Indeed the origins of British faeries lies in the mythological 'gods' (for want of a better name) of the original British Celtic tribes - As the Tuatha De Dannan, who with the coming of the Milesians, retreated to their sloughs beneath the ground and to the land of the eternal young (Tir Na Nog), becoming the Dannan Sidhe. They were worshiped as the spirit of places and occur throughout mythology (interestingly preserved by the early Christians, who saw them as evidence for the age of the Nephilim in Genesis).

There are of course parallels to older tales of faeries and UFO abduction experiences.

Of course, I don't actually believe in either, but I do find mythology fascinating. Like the idea of God, Jesus, Thor etc I think it ties heavily into an aspect of human psychology that's been largely ignored and passed over in the rush towards 'scientific objectivism' and the false separation of self from the world around us, is a fallacy. The supernatural and spiritual worlds have a reality of their own, in which they are at the very least real experiences of the people experiencing them (all existence and reality is experienced subjectively).

And there is something more to existence than just hard cold science, we all experience it, and we lose something of that in the reduction of the experience to what we can pretend to objectively measure.

That psychedelic experience has important parallels to religious experiences, that doesn't dismiss the validity of those experiences, it enhances them. The problem has been that science has always stopped short at trying to explore what it cannot explain - Even though some of the real break throughs in modern neurology came from parapsychology research (most notably in perception and how the body identifies itself in relation to the world).

An open mind, to the possible, whilst remaining firmly routed in the probable, is a good way to proceed.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View dannyh's Profile dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Mar 15 11.17am Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Mar 2015 9.41am

Quote dannyh at 17 Mar 2015 9.22am

I have nothing but respect for people who can look at scientific fact in the face and ignore it.

I pointed out on another thread that a mainstay of the christian faith is that the Earth is about 6000 years old.

It isnt. It is billions of years old.

Thats Genesis discounted as codswallop with out even breaking out the big guns.

Thing is I dont see anymore evidence that the bible is real, than there is for fairys at the bottom of your garden.

As forthe big question about God, I don't know. I would like to think the universe is not just a fluke and that some one/thing is trying to keep it all going. But the bible ..nope not having it.

In fairness, to the bible and Genesis, at no point does it state the age of the earth. That's a Christian Fundermentalist assertion, generated by simply counting up the age of everyone in the bible. Its largely considered bollocks by almost every Christian sect and movement.

As for Fairies at the bottom of the garden, that's a 18th/19th century invention. The real faeries are a lot less benevolent and friendly than those of the Romantic / Victorian revival.

Indeed the origins of British faeries lies in the mythological 'gods' (for want of a better name) of the original British Celtic tribes - As the Tuatha De Dannan, who with the coming of the Milesians, retreated to their sloughs beneath the ground and to the land of the eternal young (Tir Na Nog), becoming the Dannan Sidhe. They were worshiped as the spirit of places and occur throughout mythology (interestingly preserved by the early Christians, who saw them as evidence for the age of the Nephilim in Genesis).

There are of course parallels to older tales of faeries and UFO abduction experiences.

Of course, I don't actually believe in either, but I do find mythology fascinating. Like the idea of God, Jesus, Thor etc I think it ties heavily into an aspect of human psychology that's been largely ignored and passed over in the rush towards 'scientific objectivism' and the false separation of self from the world around us, is a fallacy. The supernatural and spiritual worlds have a reality of their own, in which they are at the very least real experiences of the people experiencing them (all existence and reality is experienced subjectively).

And there is something more to existence than just hard cold science, we all experience it, and we lose something of that in the reduction of the experience to what we can pretend to objectively measure.

That psychedelic experience has important parallels to religious experiences, that doesn't dismiss the validity of those experiences, it enhances them. The problem has been that science has always stopped short at trying to explore what it cannot explain - Even though some of the real break throughs in modern neurology came from parapsychology research (most notably in perception and how the body identifies itself in relation to the world).

An open mind, to the possible, whilst remaining firmly routed in the probable, is a good way to proceed.



I do have an open mind, I have an open mind about the bible, I am not stupid enough to think that it should be taken literally.

But it is full of historical inaccuraices not to mention out and out lies, Take the bitrthday of Jesus, celebrated as the 25-Dec-00 that day was traditionally a Pagan festival celebrating the ending of the shortning of days.

It was assimalated into the Christain Bible to appease niew followers that were press ganged into being christians.

I will conceed that I do believe in life after death, and I don't have all the answers. But come on, most of what is written in the bible should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Not 100% belief.

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 17 Mar 15 12.44pm

Quote dannyh at 17 Mar 2015 11.17am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Mar 2015 9.41am

Quote dannyh at 17 Mar 2015 9.22am

I have nothing but respect for people who can look at scientific fact in the face and ignore it.

I pointed out on another thread that a mainstay of the christian faith is that the Earth is about 6000 years old.

It isnt. It is billions of years old.

Thats Genesis discounted as codswallop with out even breaking out the big guns.

Thing is I dont see anymore evidence that the bible is real, than there is for fairys at the bottom of your garden.

As forthe big question about God, I don't know. I would like to think the universe is not just a fluke and that some one/thing is trying to keep it all going. But the bible ..nope not having it.

In fairness, to the bible and Genesis, at no point does it state the age of the earth. That's a Christian Fundermentalist assertion, generated by simply counting up the age of everyone in the bible. Its largely considered bollocks by almost every Christian sect and movement.

As for Fairies at the bottom of the garden, that's a 18th/19th century invention. The real faeries are a lot less benevolent and friendly than those of the Romantic / Victorian revival.

Indeed the origins of British faeries lies in the mythological 'gods' (for want of a better name) of the original British Celtic tribes - As the Tuatha De Dannan, who with the coming of the Milesians, retreated to their sloughs beneath the ground and to the land of the eternal young (Tir Na Nog), becoming the Dannan Sidhe. They were worshiped as the spirit of places and occur throughout mythology (interestingly preserved by the early Christians, who saw them as evidence for the age of the Nephilim in Genesis).

There are of course parallels to older tales of faeries and UFO abduction experiences.

Of course, I don't actually believe in either, but I do find mythology fascinating. Like the idea of God, Jesus, Thor etc I think it ties heavily into an aspect of human psychology that's been largely ignored and passed over in the rush towards 'scientific objectivism' and the false separation of self from the world around us, is a fallacy. The supernatural and spiritual worlds have a reality of their own, in which they are at the very least real experiences of the people experiencing them (all existence and reality is experienced subjectively).

And there is something more to existence than just hard cold science, we all experience it, and we lose something of that in the reduction of the experience to what we can pretend to objectively measure.

That psychedelic experience has important parallels to religious experiences, that doesn't dismiss the validity of those experiences, it enhances them. The problem has been that science has always stopped short at trying to explore what it cannot explain - Even though some of the real break throughs in modern neurology came from parapsychology research (most notably in perception and how the body identifies itself in relation to the world).

An open mind, to the possible, whilst remaining firmly routed in the probable, is a good way to proceed.



I do have an open mind, I have an open mind about the bible, I am not stupid enough to think that it should be taken literally.

But it is full of historical inaccuraices not to mention out and out lies, Take the bitrthday of Jesus, celebrated as the 25-Dec-00 that day was traditionally a Pagan festival celebrating the ending of the shortning of days.

It was assimalated into the Christain Bible to appease niew followers that were press ganged into being christians.

I will conceed that I do believe in life after death, and I don't have all the answers. But come on, most of what is written in the bible should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Not 100% belief.

Mythras I think they borrowed/stole. The early church had a problem, firstly they were dealing with a still largely pagan society in Rome, and secondly they knew very little about Jesus. So they did what the Roman empire had been doing for centuaries, they borrowed and collated what they knew with the now popular mystery cults of Mythras (and used the 25th as that was also the birthday of Zoroastra). Mythras to Christmas etc (the same applies to easter, which comes from Ester which survives in its rabbit connection).

The early Christian church simply was doing what the Roman Empire had done when conquering nations, adapting their beliefs into their own and adopting its peoples gods (for example, Minerva is a Roman Goddess adopted from the British Celts).

And there in lies the problem, this created the basis for the idea of a singular religion from which the militant faith of the Catholic Church emerged, rather than the previous 'churches', ultimately leading to the establishment of 'one true faith' (never actually the case), and about 1600 years of trouble and unnecessary strife.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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