Who has the numbers needed to govern?
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 The Sash  Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 01 Apr 15 8.39am |
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Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm)
Conservatives v Marxists. The Greeks had stark and completely divergent choices - we do not. We have two centrist parties who hardly have a fag papers worth of difference between them. Completely going off topic but its arguable that there is such a thing as 'democracy' but that's for another day Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 8.41am)
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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EricYoung'sSweatBand  01 Apr 15 9.40am |
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Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 8.39am
Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm)
Conservatives v Marxists. The Greeks had stark and completely divergent choices - we do not. We have two centrist parties who hardly have a fag papers worth of difference between them. Completely going off topic but its arguable that there is such a thing as 'democracy' but that's for another day Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 8.41am)
While it isn't on the same scale as Greece, there are obviously differences the fringe parties can make.
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| We are goin up! Coulsdon 01 Apr 15 9.41am |
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Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 8.39am
Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm)
Conservatives v Marxists. The Greeks had stark and completely divergent choices - we do not. We have two centrist parties who hardly have a fag papers worth of difference between them. Completely going off topic but its arguable that there is such a thing as 'democracy' but that's for another day Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 8.41am)
Do you hear many people calling for a return to a left-wing Labour being hamstrung by trade unions? Or for another Thatcherite Conservative party? Not many. Which means that, whilst we may moan about the lack of choice, can you blame the big parties for not veering off to the right/left when it will lose them votes? That's democracy actually at work.
The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. |
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| The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 01 Apr 15 9.43am |
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Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 01 Apr 2015 9.40am
Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 8.39am
Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm)
Conservatives v Marxists. The Greeks had stark and completely divergent choices - we do not. We have two centrist parties who hardly have a fag papers worth of difference between them. Completely going off topic but its arguable that there is such a thing as 'democracy' but that's for another day Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 8.41am)
While it isn't on the same scale as Greece, there are obviously differences the fringe parties can make.
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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Kermit8  Hevon 01 Apr 15 10.12am |
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Yep. And if Blair had been born ten years earlier he would have joined the Tories. A perfect fit. Massive Thatcher admirer. You could see it in every sinew. He so wanted to emulate her. World statesman my arse. As it was he read it very well and realised his political career would be best served in a different party. He was about as Labour as Alan B'stards silk knickers.
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Apr 15 10.35am |
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Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm) What has happened in Greece isn't a 'product of democracy' it a product of economic disaster, which traditionally has always led to extremist parties capitalising (usually far right and far left). Arguably the real affect of democracy in the Greek situation is that it acts as a 'pressure valve'. Of course Greece also actually has a democratic system based on proportional representation, rather than a our 'constitunency based first past the post' system that is effectively rigged to leave large parts of the population irrelivent to the democratic process.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 01 Apr 15 10.59am |
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Quote We are goin up! at 01 Apr 2015 9.41am
Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 8.39am
Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm)
Conservatives v Marxists. The Greeks had stark and completely divergent choices - we do not. We have two centrist parties who hardly have a fag papers worth of difference between them. Completely going off topic but its arguable that there is such a thing as 'democracy' but that's for another day Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 8.41am)
Do you hear many people calling for a return to a left-wing Labour being hamstrung by trade unions? Or for another Thatcherite Conservative party? Not many. Which means that, whilst we may moan about the lack of choice, can you blame the big parties for not veering off to the right/left when it will lose them votes? That's democracy actually at work.[/quote]
If you take one of its many definitions of 'government by the people for the people' - it certainly isn't that and I would argue that it isn't in the UK. Larry Diamonds definitions which I kind of agree with (and I had to Google cos I couldn't remember them)is 1 A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections. 2 The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life. 3 Protection of the human rights of all citizens. 4 A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens You could argue no country (or very few) afford that to all of its citizens - anyhoo like I said the nature and definition of true democracy is a whole new thread...and I would argue no country is fully democratic - there are just degrees of democracy to a point Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 10.59am)
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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| The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 01 Apr 15 11.01am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Apr 2015 10.35am
Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm) What has happened in Greece isn't a 'product of democracy' it a product of economic disaster, which traditionally has always led to extremist parties capitalising (usually far right and far left). Arguably the real affect of democracy in the Greek situation is that it acts as a 'pressure valve'. Of course Greece also actually has a democratic system based on proportional representation, rather than a our 'constitunency based first past the post' system that is effectively rigged to leave large parts of the population irrelivent to the democratic process. Which is something we need desperately in this country.
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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| Alert a moderator to this post |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Apr 15 12.43pm |
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Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 11.01am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Apr 2015 10.35am
Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm) What has happened in Greece isn't a 'product of democracy' it a product of economic disaster, which traditionally has always led to extremist parties capitalising (usually far right and far left). Arguably the real affect of democracy in the Greek situation is that it acts as a 'pressure valve'. Of course Greece also actually has a democratic system based on proportional representation, rather than a our 'constitunency based first past the post' system that is effectively rigged to leave large parts of the population irrelivent to the democratic process. Which is something we need desperately in this country. A democratic system thats actually a) democratic in principle and b) creates representation in parliment for the vast majority of voters. You know I don't think I've ever lived somewhere where my vote actually counted, everywhere I've lived has been a strong safe seat (either Labour or conservative).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Apr 15 12.48pm |
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Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 10.59am
Quote We are goin up! at 01 Apr 2015 9.41am
Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 8.39am
Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm)
Conservatives v Marxists. The Greeks had stark and completely divergent choices - we do not. We have two centrist parties who hardly have a fag papers worth of difference between them. Completely going off topic but its arguable that there is such a thing as 'democracy' but that's for another day Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 8.41am)
Do you hear many people calling for a return to a left-wing Labour being hamstrung by trade unions? Or for another Thatcherite Conservative party? Not many. Which means that, whilst we may moan about the lack of choice, can you blame the big parties for not veering off to the right/left when it will lose them votes? That's democracy actually at work.[/quote]
If you take one of its many definitions of 'government by the people for the people' - it certainly isn't that and I would argue that it isn't in the UK. Larry Diamonds definitions which I kind of agree with (and I had to Google cos I couldn't remember them)is 1 A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections. 2 The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life. 3 Protection of the human rights of all citizens. 4 A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens You could argue no country (or very few) afford that to all of its citizens - anyhoo like I said the nature and definition of true democracy is a whole new thread...and I would argue no country is fully democratic - there are just degrees of democracy to a point Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 10.59am) Democracy is a good idea, that largely is then co-opted and designed to perpetuate a status quo of the privillaged class groups (ie the wealthy and the middle classes), typically white middle class men (who are massively represented in parliment compared to their demographic). Typically its introduced as a means of 'acceptable degrees of change', ie those which preserve the power balance of the country.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Alert a moderator to this post |
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| The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 01 Apr 15 1.20pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Apr 2015 12.48pm
Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 10.59am
Quote We are goin up! at 01 Apr 2015 9.41am
Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 8.39am
Quote We are goin up! at 31 Mar 2015 11.14pm
Quote EricYoung'sSweatBand at 31 Mar 2015 1.40pm
Do people really think that all those Scottish people voting SNP will achieve nothing? At the very worst, Labour will lose the election so will have to try and win those voters back and at the very best they will be in Government with Labour and will have a real say in their destinity. To say a vote means nothing is idiotic.
Edited by We are goin up! (31 Mar 2015 11.16pm)
Conservatives v Marxists. The Greeks had stark and completely divergent choices - we do not. We have two centrist parties who hardly have a fag papers worth of difference between them. Completely going off topic but its arguable that there is such a thing as 'democracy' but that's for another day Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 8.41am)
Do you hear many people calling for a return to a left-wing Labour being hamstrung by trade unions? Or for another Thatcherite Conservative party? Not many. Which means that, whilst we may moan about the lack of choice, can you blame the big parties for not veering off to the right/left when it will lose them votes? That's democracy actually at work.[/quote]
If you take one of its many definitions of 'government by the people for the people' - it certainly isn't that and I would argue that it isn't in the UK. Larry Diamonds definitions which I kind of agree with (and I had to Google cos I couldn't remember them)is 1 A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections. 2 The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life. 3 Protection of the human rights of all citizens. 4 A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens You could argue no country (or very few) afford that to all of its citizens - anyhoo like I said the nature and definition of true democracy is a whole new thread...and I would argue no country is fully democratic - there are just degrees of democracy to a point Edited by The Sash (01 Apr 2015 10.59am) Democracy is a good idea, that largely is then co-opted and designed to perpetuate a status quo of the privillaged class groups (ie the wealthy and the middle classes), typically white middle class men (who are massively represented in parliment compared to their demographic). Typically its introduced as a means of 'acceptable degrees of change', ie those which preserve the power balance of the country. No argument from me other than a slight deviation - we are typically (perhaps more so these days) represented by a career political 'class' who may be a white male majority but have little in common or shared experience with the majority of other white men....a lot gets made of that, when you might as well say Diane *spit* Abbott is wholly representative of the experience and outlook of black women. 'Democracy' in whatever definition you care to choose, like most political systems is a wonderful idea in theory - being left in the hands of human beings to nurture it is where it tends to f*ck up
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Apr 15 3.39pm |
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Quote The Sash at 01 Apr 2015 1.20pm
No argument from me other than a slight deviation - we are typically (perhaps more so these days) represented by a career political 'class' who may be a white male majority but have little in common or shared experience with the majority of other white men....a lot gets made of that, when you might as well say Diane *spit* Abbott is wholly representative of the experience and outlook of black women. 'Democracy' in whatever definition you care to choose, like most political systems is a wonderful idea in theory - being left in the hands of human beings to nurture it is where it tends to f*ck up Problem with the likes of Dianne Abbot is a tendency to forget the suffix of White Middle Class (and upper class) male. The experience of the ethnic middle classes, all ethnic working classes (regardless of gender) is that they're equally unrepresented (although arguably one can make a case that among the middle classes ethnicity is less of a division than for the working classes - Discrimination among the elite usually has more to do with professed values, lower classes and lifestyles. And by middle class I mean the real middle class, not those upper working class fools who've deluded themselves.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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