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legaleagle Flag 26 Apr 15 4.26pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)

Somewhat more harmonious overall than pre-1994,I'd say....but to cheer you up here's something to evoke the "good" old harmonious days of separateness.


[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (26 Apr 2015 4.48pm)

 

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imbored Flag UK 26 Apr 15 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am


-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences.
Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy.
It is what it is
Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced.
There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy.

....................................................


Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly...

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness".

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?


Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)


It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to.

 

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TheJudge Flag 26 Apr 15 6.12pm

Quote legaleagle at 26 Apr 2015 4.26pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)

Somewhat more harmonious overall than pre-1994,I'd say....but to cheer you up here's something to evoke the "good" old harmonious days of separateness.


[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (26 Apr 2015 4.48pm)

And encouraged by their new found liberty some decide to use their energy intimidating immigrants. Oh the irony.
Really, this discussion is not about imposing a regime, it is about the anthropological observations.

 

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TheJudge Flag 26 Apr 15 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am


-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences.
Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy.
It is what it is
Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced.
There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy.

....................................................


Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly...

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness".

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?


Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)


It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to.

Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work.
Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them.

 

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imbored Flag UK 26 Apr 15 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am


-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences.
Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy.
It is what it is
Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced.
There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy.

....................................................


Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly...

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness".

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?


Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)


It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to.

Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work.
Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them.

People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't.


 

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TheJudge Flag 26 Apr 15 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am


-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences.
Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy.
It is what it is
Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced.
There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy.

....................................................


Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly...

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness".

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?


Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)


It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to.

Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work.
Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them.

People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't.


It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.
Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care.

 

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imbored Flag UK 26 Apr 15 9.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am


-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences.
Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy.
It is what it is
Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced.
There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy.

....................................................


Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly...

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness".

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?


Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)


It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to.

Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work.
Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them.

People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't.


It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.
Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care.

This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation.


Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm)

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 26 Apr 15 9.07pm

Sure I've seen research somewhere that shows children don't differentiate racially until they are 3 or 4 years old.

 

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imbored Flag UK 26 Apr 15 9.17pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.07pm

Sure I've seen research somewhere that shows children don't differentiate racially until they are 3 or 4 years old.


I'm sure there are elements of nature and nurture to everything, but it's backward, sad and defeatist when people apparently think it's better to keep races apart. There is so much variation in race to begin with, to hold such a view unnecessarily limits a person to a very small world. These are not ideas worthy of being passed on.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 26 Apr 15 9.25pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.17pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.07pm

Sure I've seen research somewhere that shows children don't differentiate racially until they are 3 or 4 years old.


I'm sure there are elements of nature and nurture to everything, but it's backward, sad and defeatist when people apparently think it's better to keep races apart. There is so much variation in race to begin with, to hold such a view unnecessarily limits a person to a very small world. These are not ideas worthy of being passed on.


All we need is a great big melting pot.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 26 Apr 15 9.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.25pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.17pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.07pm

Sure I've seen research somewhere that shows children don't differentiate racially until they are 3 or 4 years old.


I'm sure there are elements of nature and nurture to everything, but it's backward, sad and defeatist when people apparently think it's better to keep races apart. There is so much variation in race to begin with, to hold such a view unnecessarily limits a person to a very small world. These are not ideas worthy of being passed on.


All we need is a great big melting pot.

I posted this in jest... Then I happened to read this...

[Link]


Ridiculous!

 

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TheJudge Flag 26 Apr 15 10.04pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am


-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences.
Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy.
It is what it is
Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced.
There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy.

....................................................


Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly...

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness".

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?


Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)


It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to.

Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work.
Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them.

People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't.


It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.
Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care.

This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation.


Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm)


It's just not that simple.

 

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