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TheJudge 28 Apr 15 11.40pm
Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 10.32pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 10.06pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm I see your point of view. However, have you considered then fact that people who are prepared to believe in religious teachings and mould their lives around them might be rather easily lead ? What happens when the West has conflicts with Muslim nations or groups like ISIS ? We have people leaving this country to join them now, What will it be like in 2050 I wonder. There are estimated to be c.26 million catholics and c.31 million protestants in Germany,of whom a reasonable number could be presumed to be "religious" to some degree.Based on your assertion (which you state is "fact", presumably they are no less (or more) easily led than followers of any other religion...or does your "fact" only apply to followers of Islam in your opinion? .......................................... Reasonable ,but the Catholic troubles were specifically a domestic issue related to the migration of Protestants to Ireland. Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism are a global phenomenon and as we have seen it's reach goes beyond borders and influences the naive and easily lead. I am no lover of Catholicism but to the best of my knowledge, Catholics do not represent a global security threat right now. My point was not about "threats".Merely responding to your "factual" assertion that followers of religions are in your view easily led.Recent history in Germany and former Yugoslavia ,for example,shows Christians can be as easily led (or not) as anyone else. To the extent to which "The Troubles" in N Ireland (which had been posted about by someone else,not me) were rooted in historical protestant/catholic conflict ,it was arguably not so at odds with the catholic/protestant and catholic/orthodox antipathy in many parts of Europe historically (and not so historically in former Yugoslavia)and in that sense very much not just an isolated phenomenon. I note with interest your equating of Muslims per se with "terrorism" and "fundamentalism". Not entirely dissimilar to the old tarring of any and all communists and socialists as the international "threat within". It's a reasonable argument and I accept that Catholicism has been involved in regional conflicts at various times. Hovever we are talking about the hear and now and right now the security threat to the West comes from Islamic terrorists. Now you can argue that there are other players in the terrorism game and that not all Muslims are terrorists and all those well trodden truisms but ultimately, that did not help Charlie Hebdo or the people on that bus on 7/7 or the people in the WTC on 9/11 or those people beheaded or burned in the middle East or Lee Rigby and so on. My point is simple. It's easy to be reasonable and liberal until the bad stuff is on your doorstep or happens to someone you care about. You are absolutely right. The Muslim community should not be blamed, persecuted or demonised in the current climate, but among their number are people who wish harm on the West and when push comes to shove my only loyalty is to my family. Their safety trumps any thoughts of worrying about the plight of Islam. I make no apology for that. Edited by TheJudge (28 Apr 2015 11.41pm)
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TheJudge

28 Apr 15 11.40pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 10.32pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 10.06pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm

I see your point of view.
However, have you considered then fact that people who are prepared to believe in religious teachings and mould their lives around them might be rather easily lead ?
What happens when the West has conflicts with Muslim nations or groups like ISIS ?
We have people leaving this country to join them now, What will it be like in 2050 I wonder.

There are estimated to be c.26 million catholics and c.31 million protestants in Germany,of whom a reasonable number could be presumed to be "religious" to some degree.Based on your assertion (which you state is "fact", presumably they are no less (or more) easily led than followers of any other religion...or does your "fact" only apply to followers of Islam in your opinion?

..........................................
Reasonable ,but the Catholic troubles were specifically a domestic issue related to the migration of Protestants to Ireland. Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism are a global phenomenon and as we have seen it's reach goes beyond borders and influences the naive and easily lead. I am no lover of Catholicism but to the best of my knowledge, Catholics do not represent a global security threat right now.

My point was not about "threats".Merely responding to your "factual" assertion that followers of religions are in your view easily led.Recent history in Germany and former Yugoslavia ,for example,shows Christians can be as easily led (or not) as anyone else.

To the extent to which "The Troubles" in N Ireland (which had been posted about by someone else,not me) were rooted in historical protestant/catholic conflict ,it was arguably not so at odds with the catholic/protestant and catholic/orthodox antipathy in many parts of Europe historically (and not so historically in former Yugoslavia)and in that sense very much not just an isolated phenomenon.

I note with interest your equating of Muslims per se with "terrorism" and "fundamentalism". Not entirely dissimilar to the old tarring of any and all communists and socialists as the international "threat within".

It's a reasonable argument and I accept that Catholicism has been involved in regional conflicts at various times. Hovever we are talking about the hear and now and right now the security threat to the West comes from Islamic terrorists. Now you can argue that there are other players in the terrorism game and that not all Muslims are terrorists and all those well trodden truisms but ultimately, that did not help Charlie Hebdo or the people on that bus on 7/7 or the people in the WTC on 9/11 or those people beheaded or burned in the middle East or Lee Rigby and so on.
My point is simple. It's easy to be reasonable and liberal until the bad stuff is on your doorstep or happens to someone you care about.
You are absolutely right. The Muslim community should not be blamed, persecuted or demonised in the current climate, but among their number are people who wish harm on the West and when push comes to shove my only loyalty is to my family. Their safety trumps any thoughts of worrying about the plight of Islam. I make no apology for that.

Edited by TheJudge (28 Apr 2015 11.41pm)

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legaleagle 29 Apr 15 1.10am
Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 11.40pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 10.32pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 10.06pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm I see your point of view. However, have you considered then fact that people who are prepared to believe in religious teachings and mould their lives around them might be rather easily lead ? What happens when the West has conflicts with Muslim nations or groups like ISIS ? We have people leaving this country to join them now, What will it be like in 2050 I wonder. There are estimated to be c.26 million catholics and c.31 million protestants in Germany,of whom a reasonable number could be presumed to be "religious" to some degree.Based on your assertion (which you state is "fact", presumably they are no less (or more) easily led than followers of any other religion...or does your "fact" only apply to followers of Islam in your opinion? .......................................... Reasonable ,but the Catholic troubles were specifically a domestic issue related to the migration of Protestants to Ireland. Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism are a global phenomenon and as we have seen it's reach goes beyond borders and influences the naive and easily lead. I am no lover of Catholicism but to the best of my knowledge, Catholics do not represent a global security threat right now. My point was not about "threats".Merely responding to your "factual" assertion that followers of religions are in your view easily led.Recent history in Germany and former Yugoslavia ,for example,shows Christians can be as easily led (or not) as anyone else. To the extent to which "The Troubles" in N Ireland (which had been posted about by someone else,not me) were rooted in historical protestant/catholic conflict ,it was arguably not so at odds with the catholic/protestant and catholic/orthodox antipathy in many parts of Europe historically (and not so historically in former Yugoslavia)and in that sense very much not just an isolated phenomenon. I note with interest your equating of Muslims per se with "terrorism" and "fundamentalism". Not entirely dissimilar to the old tarring of any and all communists and socialists as the international "threat within". It's a reasonable argument and I accept that Catholicism has been involved in regional conflicts at various times. Hovever we are talking about the hear and now and right now the security threat to the West comes from Islamic terrorists. Now you can argue that there are other players in the terrorism game and that not all Muslims are terrorists and all those well trodden truisms but ultimately, that did not help Charlie Hebdo or the people on that bus on 7/7 or the people in the WTC on 9/11 or those people beheaded or burned in the middle East or Lee Rigby and so on. My point is simple. It's easy to be reasonable and liberal until the bad stuff is on your doorstep or happens to someone you care about. You are absolutely right. The Muslim community should not be blamed, persecuted or demonised in the current climate, but among their number are people who wish harm on the West and when push comes to shove my only loyalty is to my family. Their safety trumps any thoughts of worrying about the plight of Islam. I make no apology for that. Edited by TheJudge (28 Apr 2015 11.41pm) Fine words,but you spoil them by going on to refer to "the plight of Islam",thus again lumping one and all in together,a classic of demonisation. I do not,for the avoidance of doubt,dispute the very real issues faced as a result of salafist jihadi Islamism internationally.They are indeed a "danger" but one of the worst things you can do IMO is demonise all muslims the same way,just as,for example, the extent of demonisation in Iraq of sunni muslims has been a godsend to ISIS. About as helpful as demonising/lumping in all together all Catholics in N Ireland would have been/was at times to dealing with the Provos.
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legaleagle

29 Apr 15 1.10am

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 11.40pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 10.32pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 10.06pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm

It's a reasonable argument and I accept that Catholicism has been involved in regional conflicts at various times. Hovever we are talking about the hear and now and right now the security threat to the West comes from Islamic terrorists. Now you can argue that there are other players in the terrorism game and that not all Muslims are terrorists and all those well trodden truisms but ultimately, that did not help Charlie Hebdo or the people on that bus on 7/7 or the people in the WTC on 9/11 or those people beheaded or burned in the middle East or Lee Rigby and so on.
My point is simple. It's easy to be reasonable and liberal until the bad stuff is on your doorstep or happens to someone you care about.
You are absolutely right. The Muslim community should not be blamed, persecuted or demonised in the current climate, but among their number are people who wish harm on the West and when push comes to shove my only loyalty is to my family. Their safety trumps any thoughts of worrying about the plight of Islam. I make no apology for that.

Edited by TheJudge (28 Apr 2015 11.41pm)

Fine words,but you spoil them by going on to refer to "the plight of Islam",thus again lumping one and all in together,a classic of demonisation.

I do not,for the avoidance of doubt,dispute the very real issues faced as a result of salafist jihadi Islamism internationally.They are indeed a "danger" but one of the worst things you can do IMO is demonise all muslims the same way,just as,for example, the extent of demonisation in Iraq of sunni muslims has been a godsend to ISIS. About as helpful as demonising/lumping in all together all Catholics in N Ireland would have been/was at times to dealing with the Provos.

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TheJudge 29 Apr 15 9.54am
Quote legaleagle at 29 Apr 2015 1.10am Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 11.40pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 10.32pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 10.06pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm I see your point of view. However, have you considered then fact that people who are prepared to believe in religious teachings and mould their lives around them might be rather easily lead ? What happens when the West has conflicts with Muslim nations or groups like ISIS ? We have people leaving this country to join them now, What will it be like in 2050 I wonder. There are estimated to be c.26 million catholics and c.31 million protestants in Germany,of whom a reasonable number could be presumed to be "religious" to some degree.Based on your assertion (which you state is "fact", presumably they are no less (or more) easily led than followers of any other religion...or does your "fact" only apply to followers of Islam in your opinion? .......................................... Reasonable ,but the Catholic troubles were specifically a domestic issue related to the migration of Protestants to Ireland. Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism are a global phenomenon and as we have seen it's reach goes beyond borders and influences the naive and easily lead. I am no lover of Catholicism but to the best of my knowledge, Catholics do not represent a global security threat right now. My point was not about "threats".Merely responding to your "factual" assertion that followers of religions are in your view easily led.Recent history in Germany and former Yugoslavia ,for example,shows Christians can be as easily led (or not) as anyone else. To the extent to which "The Troubles" in N Ireland (which had been posted about by someone else,not me) were rooted in historical protestant/catholic conflict ,it was arguably not so at odds with the catholic/protestant and catholic/orthodox antipathy in many parts of Europe historically (and not so historically in former Yugoslavia)and in that sense very much not just an isolated phenomenon. I note with interest your equating of Muslims per se with "terrorism" and "fundamentalism". Not entirely dissimilar to the old tarring of any and all communists and socialists as the international "threat within". It's a reasonable argument and I accept that Catholicism has been involved in regional conflicts at various times. Hovever we are talking about the hear and now and right now the security threat to the West comes from Islamic terrorists. Now you can argue that there are other players in the terrorism game and that not all Muslims are terrorists and all those well trodden truisms but ultimately, that did not help Charlie Hebdo or the people on that bus on 7/7 or the people in the WTC on 9/11 or those people beheaded or burned in the middle East or Lee Rigby and so on. My point is simple. It's easy to be reasonable and liberal until the bad stuff is on your doorstep or happens to someone you care about. You are absolutely right. The Muslim community should not be blamed, persecuted or demonised in the current climate, but among their number are people who wish harm on the West and when push comes to shove my only loyalty is to my family. Their safety trumps any thoughts of worrying about the plight of Islam. I make no apology for that. Edited by TheJudge (28 Apr 2015 11.41pm) Fine words,but you spoil them by going on to refer to "the plight of Islam",thus again lumping one and all in together,a classic of demonisation. I do not,for the avoidance of doubt,dispute the very real issues faced as a result of salafist jihadi Islamism internationally.They are indeed a "danger" but one of the worst things you can do IMO is demonise all muslims the same way,just as,for example, the extent of demonisation in Iraq of sunni muslims has been a godsend to ISIS. About as helpful as demonising/lumping in all together all Catholics in N Ireland would have been/was at times to dealing with the Provos. I believe I have agreed with you on that point.
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TheJudge

29 Apr 15 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 29 Apr 2015 1.10am

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 11.40pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 10.32pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 10.06pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm

It's a reasonable argument and I accept that Catholicism has been involved in regional conflicts at various times. Hovever we are talking about the hear and now and right now the security threat to the West comes from Islamic terrorists. Now you can argue that there are other players in the terrorism game and that not all Muslims are terrorists and all those well trodden truisms but ultimately, that did not help Charlie Hebdo or the people on that bus on 7/7 or the people in the WTC on 9/11 or those people beheaded or burned in the middle East or Lee Rigby and so on.
My point is simple. It's easy to be reasonable and liberal until the bad stuff is on your doorstep or happens to someone you care about.
You are absolutely right. The Muslim community should not be blamed, persecuted or demonised in the current climate, but among their number are people who wish harm on the West and when push comes to shove my only loyalty is to my family. Their safety trumps any thoughts of worrying about the plight of Islam. I make no apology for that.

Edited by TheJudge (28 Apr 2015 11.41pm)

Fine words,but you spoil them by going on to refer to "the plight of Islam",thus again lumping one and all in together,a classic of demonisation.

I do not,for the avoidance of doubt,dispute the very real issues faced as a result of salafist jihadi Islamism internationally.They are indeed a "danger" but one of the worst things you can do IMO is demonise all muslims the same way,just as,for example, the extent of demonisation in Iraq of sunni muslims has been a godsend to ISIS. About as helpful as demonising/lumping in all together all Catholics in N Ireland would have been/was at times to dealing with the Provos.

I believe I have agreed with you on that point.

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reborn 29 Apr 15 5.20pm
Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm I see your point of view. However, have you considered then fact that people who are prepared to believe in religious teachings and mould their lives around them might be rather easily lead ? What happens when the West has conflicts with Muslim nations or groups like ISIS ? We have people leaving this country to join them now, What will it be like in 2050 I wonder. There are estimated to be c.26 million catholics and c.31 million protestants in Germany,of whom a reasonable number could be presumed to be "religious" to some degree.Based on your assertion (which you state is "fact", presumably they are no less (or more) easily led than followers of any other religion...or does your "fact" only apply to followers of Islam in your opinion? Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives. My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs
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reborn 29 Apr 15 5.20pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm

Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives.

My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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legaleagle 29 Apr 15 7.58pm
Quote reborn at 29 Apr 2015 5.20pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives. I don't disagree in general though I suspect ideas rooted in religion continue to have some significance.My point was more to do with a poster having seemingly singled out muslims in Germany as being people easily led because of his general proposition that people who follow a religion are easily led.. Edited by legaleagle (29 Apr 2015 8.18pm)
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legaleagle

29 Apr 15 7.58pm

Quote reborn at 29 Apr 2015 5.20pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm

Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives.

I don't disagree in general though I suspect ideas rooted in religion continue to have some significance.My point was more to do with a poster having seemingly singled out muslims in Germany as being people easily led because of his general proposition that people who follow a religion are easily led..

Edited by legaleagle (29 Apr 2015 8.18pm)

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TUX redhill 29 Apr 15 9.04pm
Quote legaleagle at 29 Apr 2015 7.58pm Quote reborn at 29 Apr 2015 5.20pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives. I don't disagree in general though I suspect ideas rooted in religion continue to have some significance.My point was more to do with a poster having seemingly singled out muslims in Germany as being people easily led because of his general proposition that people who follow a religion are easily led.. Edited by legaleagle (29 Apr 2015 8.18pm) It's hard to disagree imo. Following a book (regardless of religion) written many years ago says to me that you can't be a good person without instruction. Therefore ''easily led''.
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TUX

redhill 29 Apr 15 9.04pm

Quote legaleagle at 29 Apr 2015 7.58pm

Quote reborn at 29 Apr 2015 5.20pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm

Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives.

I don't disagree in general though I suspect ideas rooted in religion continue to have some significance.My point was more to do with a poster having seemingly singled out muslims in Germany as being people easily led because of his general proposition that people who follow a religion are easily led..

Edited by legaleagle (29 Apr 2015 8.18pm)

It's hard to disagree imo.
Following a book (regardless of religion) written many years ago says to me that you can't be a good person without instruction.
Therefore ''easily led''.

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legaleagle 29 Apr 15 9.24pm
and to that extent,all equally easily led.
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legaleagle

29 Apr 15 9.24pm

and to that extent,all equally easily led.

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TUX redhill 29 Apr 15 9.30pm
Quote legaleagle at 29 Apr 2015 9.24pm and to that extent,all equally easily led. Nah, it's called an inner conscience.
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TUX

redhill 29 Apr 15 9.30pm

Quote legaleagle at 29 Apr 2015 9.24pm

and to that extent,all equally easily led.

Nah, it's called an inner conscience.

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TheJudge 30 Apr 15 10.56am
I never trust the pious. They are either pretending or they are loons.
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TheJudge

30 Apr 15 10.56am

I never trust the pious. They are either pretending or they are loons.

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susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 30 Apr 15 1.28pm
Quote reborn at 29 Apr 2015 5.20pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm I see your point of view. However, have you considered then fact that people who are prepared to believe in religious teachings and mould their lives around them might be rather easily lead ? What happens when the West has conflicts with Muslim nations or groups like ISIS ? We have people leaving this country to join them now, What will it be like in 2050 I wonder. There are estimated to be c.26 million catholics and c.31 million protestants in Germany,of whom a reasonable number could be presumed to be "religious" to some degree.Based on your assertion (which you state is "fact", presumably they are no less (or more) easily led than followers of any other religion...or does your "fact" only apply to followers of Islam in your opinion? Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives. Post christian culture and the Islamization of Belgium: [Link] Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.
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susmik

PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 30 Apr 15 1.28pm

Quote reborn at 29 Apr 2015 5.20pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm

Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives.

Post christian culture and the Islamization of Belgium:

[Link]

Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

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ghosteagle 30 Apr 15 1.33pm
Quote susmik at 30 Apr 2015 1.28pm Quote reborn at 29 Apr 2015 5.20pm Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm I see your point of view. However, have you considered then fact that people who are prepared to believe in religious teachings and mould their lives around them might be rather easily lead ? What happens when the West has conflicts with Muslim nations or groups like ISIS ? We have people leaving this country to join them now, What will it be like in 2050 I wonder. There are estimated to be c.26 million catholics and c.31 million protestants in Germany,of whom a reasonable number could be presumed to be "religious" to some degree.Based on your assertion (which you state is "fact", presumably they are no less (or more) easily led than followers of any other religion...or does your "fact" only apply to followers of Islam in your opinion? Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives. Post christian culture and the Islamization of Belgium: [Link] John.R.Bolton is the chairman of 'the gatestone institute. 'Nuff said.
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ghosteagle

30 Apr 15 1.33pm

Quote susmik at 30 Apr 2015 1.28pm

Quote reborn at 29 Apr 2015 5.20pm

Quote legaleagle at 28 Apr 2015 9.16pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 12.20pm

Germany (as the UK), is very much a post Christian culture. Religion plays very little part in everyday peoples lives.

Post christian culture and the Islamization of Belgium:

[Link]

John.R.Bolton is the chairman of 'the gatestone institute. 'Nuff said.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Apr 15 3.01pm
Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 11.40pm It's a reasonable argument and I accept that Catholicism has been involved in regional conflicts at various times. Hovever we are talking about the hear and now and right now the security threat to the West comes from Islamic terrorists. Now you can argue that there are other players in the terrorism game and that not all Muslims are terrorists and all those well trodden truisms but ultimately, that did not help Charlie Hebdo or the people on that bus on 7/7 or the people in the WTC on 9/11 or those people beheaded or burned in the middle East or Lee Rigby and so on. My point is simple. It's easy to be reasonable and liberal until the bad stuff is on your doorstep or happens to someone you care about. You are absolutely right. The Muslim community should not be blamed, persecuted or demonised in the current climate, but among their number are people who wish harm on the West and when push comes to shove my only loyalty is to my family. Their safety trumps any thoughts of worrying about the plight of Islam. I make no apology for that. Edited by TheJudge (28 Apr 2015 11.41pm) The irony of course is that the biggest asset to anti-terrorist services in the UK is that same community. Of course among any number of communities exist a number of threats to your family that are far more realistic threats in terms of occurrence than acts of terror (Murder itself is really uncommon, murder by terrorist action as a threat is almost non-existant). In some ways we need to be careful that we don't fall into the fear trap, where we're creating more radicalization by our actions to prevent radicalization and terrorism. An analogue of this is peoples fear of 'pedophile abductions' meaning they leave their kids with friends and family members, who statistically are the most prevalent of child sex offenders. In the pursuit of security and safety, its vital to ensure that the actions we take do not create greater problems or threats. Internment in NI served the IRA far more than it served the Government. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 30 Apr 15 3.01pm

Quote TheJudge at 28 Apr 2015 11.40pm
It's a reasonable argument and I accept that Catholicism has been involved in regional conflicts at various times. Hovever we are talking about the hear and now and right now the security threat to the West comes from Islamic terrorists. Now you can argue that there are other players in the terrorism game and that not all Muslims are terrorists and all those well trodden truisms but ultimately, that did not help Charlie Hebdo or the people on that bus on 7/7 or the people in the WTC on 9/11 or those people beheaded or burned in the middle East or Lee Rigby and so on.
My point is simple. It's easy to be reasonable and liberal until the bad stuff is on your doorstep or happens to someone you care about.
You are absolutely right. The Muslim community should not be blamed, persecuted or demonised in the current climate, but among their number are people who wish harm on the West and when push comes to shove my only loyalty is to my family. Their safety trumps any thoughts of worrying about the plight of Islam. I make no apology for that.

Edited by TheJudge (28 Apr 2015 11.41pm)

The irony of course is that the biggest asset to anti-terrorist services in the UK is that same community. Of course among any number of communities exist a number of threats to your family that are far more realistic threats in terms of occurrence than acts of terror (Murder itself is really uncommon, murder by terrorist action as a threat is almost non-existant).

In some ways we need to be careful that we don't fall into the fear trap, where we're creating more radicalization by our actions to prevent radicalization and terrorism. An analogue of this is peoples fear of 'pedophile abductions' meaning they leave their kids with friends and family members, who statistically are the most prevalent of child sex offenders.

In the pursuit of security and safety, its vital to ensure that the actions we take do not create greater problems or threats. Internment in NI served the IRA far more than it served the Government.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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