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TheJudge  09 Apr 15 2.56pm |
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Quote The Sash at 09 Apr 2015 12.47pm
Quote TheJudge at 09 Apr 2015 12.30pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Apr 2015 10.18am
Quote imbored at 08 Apr 2015 11.08pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Apr 2015 10.55pm
Quote imbored at 08 Apr 2015 10.37pm
Meaning if the majority are black then whites suffer the brunt of racism and vice versa? Yes I'd agree with that. Minorities are often at a disadvantage. In that scenario you were the minority. Evidently you got out. Of course the lesson to be learned is to treat those 'up against it' with empathy and fairness, rather than attack or laud over minorities. Easier said than done when people are in an advantageous position, like those on the estate, or sometimes those who get out of such situations. Often the abused becomes the abuser. An easy trap to fall into.
Yup, I'd say that's about right. It also is true that it's normally a minority of people who actually are the problem.....Most people are fine and just getting on with their lives. Still, the impact of a few nasty incidents can be quite significant upon an individual and cause them to become insular....Which just makes integration even harder. Still, if you choose to re-locate to a country then you should know to expect that some people are going to be arseholes.....It's essentially the same most places if you are in a minority. Swings and roundabouts. Similar with the police in the States for instance. There are a minority of nutters in badges who drag the reputation of them all down and create friction between communities. From a different vantage point the police would claim that they have to be tough on crime because of the problems in those communities. So it ends up being something of a slippery slope with no easy answers. I disagree with this. The problem with the Police in the US isn't with racism, per se, it just that the black community of the US has in place a number of groups that have a history of racial campaigning. Looking at the statistics the US police shoot and kill a staggering amount of unarmed people and resort to leathal force remarkably quickly. Its not just with black people, its just that the black community having experienced racism in the past from racist police forces have the capacity for successful protest. A lot of poor white people get shot in exactly the same circumstances but the capacity of 'resistance' to that doesn't exist. It remains localised rather than nationalised news (where as Black and Hispanic communities have 'effective mechanisms of resistance to racism'). The US Police have a very liberal approch to the use of lethal force in poorer communities, and are typically defended by a law that presents a very liberal attitude to the use of firearms prevelent in US Society. Certainly a very large amount of US police killings would be considered murder in the UK. The race card. How about that. To state a truism about the historical situation, status and social position, especially when in relation to the police, of Black America and the subsequent groups which have evolved from the 60's civil rights movements which today challenge perceived racist policing in a more organised fashion than White America does for white suspects being shot) isn't playing any race card - its a fact.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 09 Apr 15 3.51pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 09 Apr 2015 12.30pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Apr 2015 10.18am
Quote imbored at 08 Apr 2015 11.08pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Apr 2015 10.55pm
Quote imbored at 08 Apr 2015 10.37pm
Meaning if the majority are black then whites suffer the brunt of racism and vice versa? Yes I'd agree with that. Minorities are often at a disadvantage. In that scenario you were the minority. Evidently you got out. Of course the lesson to be learned is to treat those 'up against it' with empathy and fairness, rather than attack or laud over minorities. Easier said than done when people are in an advantageous position, like those on the estate, or sometimes those who get out of such situations. Often the abused becomes the abuser. An easy trap to fall into.
Yup, I'd say that's about right. It also is true that it's normally a minority of people who actually are the problem.....Most people are fine and just getting on with their lives. Still, the impact of a few nasty incidents can be quite significant upon an individual and cause them to become insular....Which just makes integration even harder. Still, if you choose to re-locate to a country then you should know to expect that some people are going to be arseholes.....It's essentially the same most places if you are in a minority. Swings and roundabouts. Similar with the police in the States for instance. There are a minority of nutters in badges who drag the reputation of them all down and create friction between communities. From a different vantage point the police would claim that they have to be tough on crime because of the problems in those communities. So it ends up being something of a slippery slope with no easy answers. I disagree with this. The problem with the Police in the US isn't with racism, per se, it just that the black community of the US has in place a number of groups that have a history of racial campaigning. Looking at the statistics the US police shoot and kill a staggering amount of unarmed people and resort to leathal force remarkably quickly. Its not just with black people, its just that the black community having experienced racism in the past from racist police forces have the capacity for successful protest. A lot of poor white people get shot in exactly the same circumstances but the capacity of 'resistance' to that doesn't exist. It remains localised rather than nationalised news (where as Black and Hispanic communities have 'effective mechanisms of resistance to racism'). The US Police have a very liberal approch to the use of lethal force in poorer communities, and are typically defended by a law that presents a very liberal attitude to the use of firearms prevelent in US Society. Certainly a very large amount of US police killings would be considered murder in the UK. The race card. How about that. I don't think its playing the race card, its more having the apparatus in place to raise an issue, protest and promote it, because of a history of racism and prejudice in the US, which is still present and active today. As such, black America has the social political institutions to esclate issues. I wouldn't necessarily rule out racism as a factor, in some cases, but that the greater reality is that a greater social phenomena is at stake. The police in the US kill 400 people a year (not including deaths in custody). However no accurate centralised collection of statistics is kept (yep, the US Police aren't required to report statistics on the number of people they shoot or kill) There are no records for the number of non-fatal shootings by US police. In 2012 409 People in the US were shot and killed by the police out of 410 people killed by the police. The british police fired three shots in the same time frame and killed no one.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| TheJudge 09 Apr 15 4.02pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Apr 2015 3.51pm
Quote TheJudge at 09 Apr 2015 12.30pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 09 Apr 2015 10.18am
Quote imbored at 08 Apr 2015 11.08pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Apr 2015 10.55pm
Quote imbored at 08 Apr 2015 10.37pm
Meaning if the majority are black then whites suffer the brunt of racism and vice versa? Yes I'd agree with that. Minorities are often at a disadvantage. In that scenario you were the minority. Evidently you got out. Of course the lesson to be learned is to treat those 'up against it' with empathy and fairness, rather than attack or laud over minorities. Easier said than done when people are in an advantageous position, like those on the estate, or sometimes those who get out of such situations. Often the abused becomes the abuser. An easy trap to fall into.
Yup, I'd say that's about right. It also is true that it's normally a minority of people who actually are the problem.....Most people are fine and just getting on with their lives. Still, the impact of a few nasty incidents can be quite significant upon an individual and cause them to become insular....Which just makes integration even harder. Still, if you choose to re-locate to a country then you should know to expect that some people are going to be arseholes.....It's essentially the same most places if you are in a minority. Swings and roundabouts. Similar with the police in the States for instance. There are a minority of nutters in badges who drag the reputation of them all down and create friction between communities. From a different vantage point the police would claim that they have to be tough on crime because of the problems in those communities. So it ends up being something of a slippery slope with no easy answers. I disagree with this. The problem with the Police in the US isn't with racism, per se, it just that the black community of the US has in place a number of groups that have a history of racial campaigning. Looking at the statistics the US police shoot and kill a staggering amount of unarmed people and resort to leathal force remarkably quickly. Its not just with black people, its just that the black community having experienced racism in the past from racist police forces have the capacity for successful protest. A lot of poor white people get shot in exactly the same circumstances but the capacity of 'resistance' to that doesn't exist. It remains localised rather than nationalised news (where as Black and Hispanic communities have 'effective mechanisms of resistance to racism'). The US Police have a very liberal approch to the use of lethal force in poorer communities, and are typically defended by a law that presents a very liberal attitude to the use of firearms prevelent in US Society. Certainly a very large amount of US police killings would be considered murder in the UK. The race card. How about that. I don't think its playing the race card, its more having the apparatus in place to raise an issue, protest and promote it, because of a history of racism and prejudice in the US, which is still present and active today. As such, black America has the social political institutions to esclate issues. I wouldn't necessarily rule out racism as a factor, in some cases, but that the greater reality is that a greater social phenomena is at stake. The police in the US kill 400 people a year (not including deaths in custody). However no accurate centralised collection of statistics is kept (yep, the US Police aren't required to report statistics on the number of people they shoot or kill) There are no records for the number of non-fatal shootings by US police. In 2012 409 People in the US were shot and killed by the police out of 410 people killed by the police. The british police fired three shots in the same time frame and killed no one. I agree with this. Racism could be one factor but a disproportionate number of non whites being involved in crime and their attitude toward the police could be another. The difference is, no one wants to hear the latter because it does not fit with the quasi religious liberalism that exists in the media and with the self interests groups that help promote it.
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| legaleagle 09 Apr 15 5.24pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 09 Apr 2015 4.02pm
I agree with this. Racism could be one factor but a disproportionate number of non whites being involved in crime and their attitude toward the police could be another. The difference is, no one wants to hear the latter because it does not fit with the quasi religious liberalism that exists in the media and with the self interests groups that help promote it. ................................................... Perhaps "no one" also likes to care to hear (or remember that) when balancing different potential factors institutionalised racism was pervasive (including denying the right to vote) well within living memory.Couple this with institutionalised economic and racial discrimination. Hardly any wonder if people of colour in the US still show up ahead of the average when it comes to crime statistics and attitudes towards the police, and the bit you left out,attitudes of some in the police towards them ... It takes more than a generation or so to wipe out two hundred years and fifty plus of ingrained racism. My experience of visiting small town/rural areas in the deep South (not typical of the whole country but still illuminating) was that such attitudes were very much still alive towards the black population.The most vivid example I saw being on a saturday afternoon when a group of whites who had been drinking affably with us in a bar in deepest Louisiana,saw a black guy having the nerve to wear his US Army uniform (while back on leave) on Main Street and elected to go out and threaten him with guns for this seemingly unforgivable act!Calling the police wouldn't have been much use;one of the the main protagonists was a member of the local force! A few days later,talking to an English woman in Walker,Louisiana,who had moved there as a GI Bride,and hearing her shock at seeing black people strung up from trees in town after facing "kangaroo" vigilante courts.Very much in living memory. It all points back to a bit more than "could be a factor".More like, is an important factor,especially in a country where police recourse to arms is plainly completely OTT in the first place. Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 5.42pm)
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| TheJudge 09 Apr 15 6.39pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 09 Apr 2015 5.24pm
Quote TheJudge at 09 Apr 2015 4.02pm
I agree with this. Racism could be one factor but a disproportionate number of non whites being involved in crime and their attitude toward the police could be another. The difference is, no one wants to hear the latter because it does not fit with the quasi religious liberalism that exists in the media and with the self interests groups that help promote it. ................................................... Perhaps "no one" also likes to care to hear (or remember that) when balancing different potential factors institutionalised racism was pervasive (including denying the right to vote) well within living memory.Couple this with institutionalised economic and racial discrimination. Hardly any wonder if people of colour in the US still show up ahead of the average when it comes to crime statistics and attitudes towards the police, and the bit you left out,attitudes of some in the police towards them ... It takes more than a generation or so to wipe out two hundred years and fifty plus of ingrained racism. My experience of visiting small town/rural areas in the deep South (not typical of the whole country but still illuminating) was that such attitudes were very much still alive towards the black population.The most vivid example I saw being on a saturday afternoon when a group of whites who had been drinking affably with us in a bar in deepest Louisiana,saw a black guy having the nerve to wear his US Army uniform (while back on leave) on Main Street and elected to go out and threaten him with guns for this seemingly unforgivable act!Calling the police wouldn't have been much use;one of the the main protagonists was a member of the local force! A few days later,talking to an English woman in Walker,Louisiana,who had moved there as a GI Bride,and hearing her shock at seeing black people strung up from trees in town after facing "kangaroo" vigilante courts.Very much in living memory. It all points back to a bit more than "could be a factor".More like, is an important factor,especially in a country where police recourse to arms is plainly completely OTT in the first place. I think we can all agree that racism is disgusting but the past must be left there where it belongs. [
Edited by TheJudge (09 Apr 2015 6.45pm)
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| legaleagle 09 Apr 15 7.04pm |
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And maybe,just maybe,it results in somewhat more black people being shot dead by police even nowadays than should be the case,or would otherwise be the case. Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 7.05pm)
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 OldFella Online London 09 Apr 15 7.37pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 09 Apr 2015 7.04pm
And maybe,just maybe,it results in somewhat more black people being shot dead by police even nowadays than should be the case,or would otherwise be the case. Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 7.05pm) Have you always started arguments in empty rooms?
Jackson.. Wan Bissaka.... Sansom.. Nicholas.. Cannon.. Guehi.... Zaha... Thomas.. Byrne... Holton.. Rogers.. that should do it.. |
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| TheJudge 09 Apr 15 7.52pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 09 Apr 2015 7.04pm
And maybe,just maybe,it results in somewhat more black people being shot dead by police even nowadays than should be the case,or would otherwise be the case. Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 7.05pm)
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| legaleagle 09 Apr 15 7.54pm |
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.. Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 7.55pm)
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| legaleagle 09 Apr 15 7.55pm |
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Quote OldFella at 09 Apr 2015 7.37pm
Quote legaleagle at 09 Apr 2015 7.04pm
And maybe,just maybe,it results in somewhat more black people being shot dead by police even nowadays than should be the case,or would otherwise be the case. Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 7.05pm) Have you always started arguments in empty rooms?
Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 7.57pm)
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| legaleagle 09 Apr 15 8.08pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 09 Apr 2015 7.52pm
Quote legaleagle at 09 Apr 2015 7.04pm
And maybe,just maybe,it results in somewhat more black people being shot dead by police even nowadays than should be the case,or would otherwise be the case. Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 7.05pm)
The implication that "all non whites are shot because of racism"is not one I implied,other than in your mind. I did put forward the view that racism was a "significant factor" in accounting for the phenomenon.I also referred to the "gun craziness" of cops in the USA. Yes,its purely an opinion not a fact.Its known as posting in general talk on HOL. I hope you don't take such postings as fact,any more than anyone should take your own postings in such a way. Judging by your posts,I don't know about me,but I would not like to see you in the shoes of those policemen Edited by legaleagle (09 Apr 2015 8.09pm)
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| Stirlingsays Online 09 Apr 15 8.49pm |
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Oh and by the way legal...the term 'institutional racism' is a meaningless unprovable phrase that has done more harm than good. Everytime I hear it, it makes me shudder.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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