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Bali Nine

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 30 Apr 15 10.58am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 30 Apr 2015 10.34am

Quote Pawson Palace at 30 Apr 2015 8.30am

f*** them. They knew the risks and they accepted them when tried it. You can't play the game knowing the rules and then cry because you lost.

The dear old "grandma" tried taking 1.6kg of heroin that's not exactly personal use is it?

Just because she has a British passport does not exonerate her from what she did. They should handle her as they see fit on the grounds she had a fair trial.


Exactly.

People that deal in drugs have no welfare concerns for those addicted to their poison.... why should we be concerned that they have died?

Hopefully it will be a deterrent to others although I somehow doubt it.

More scum off our streets.

Well none of them are actually on our street, and most of the UK's heroin doesn't come via the far east anyhow (it comes from Afghanistan, via pakistan, Turkey and Italy).


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View rob1969's Profile rob1969 Flag Banstead Surrey 30 Apr 15 11.21am Send a Private Message to rob1969 Add rob1969 as a friend

Quote Jimenez at 29 Apr 2015 10.45pm

Quote legaleagle at 29 Apr 2015 10.36pm

Quote Jimenez at 29 Apr 2015 9.59pm

Couldn't see a thread on this subject. I'm kind of surprised that this hasn't raised too many eye brows. I'm convinced if this had been done in The USA all the liberals & Lefties would have been out in force condemning it in the strongest possible way.

Their are countries that we would like to think have similar principles and values to us. We normally include the USA amongst these. However occasionally things occur in some of these countries that would more normally be associated with countries sharing different values. When that happens criticism is made.

Personally I find keeping people on death row for years - sometimes decades - with the constant threat of eventual execution to be cruel in the extreme. If execution is really considered necessary then better to carry it out - as in Indonesia - and at lease limit the mental suffering.


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Do you personally think the death sentence is appropriate for drug offences,Jimenez? Bear in mind,if a miscarriage of justice (and they do happen) comes out later,its too late for the accused.In the case of one of those scheduled to be killed,a new witness came forward at the 11th hour and their execution has been suspended.Day or two later and it would have been irrelevant...

Or is someone automatically to be dismissed as a "liberal" or a "leftie" for simply raising the point?

Edited by legaleagle (29 Apr 2015 10.38pm)


As it happens yes. Anyone caught trafficking drugs in countries where they know there is a chance they are going to get sentenced to death have little sympathy from me, but I digress Legal. My main point was that there has been little news or condemnation from the usual suspects (scuse pun)because this has been carried out in the Far East. The same can be said for executions in North Korea, Saudi Arabia Et al

Not sure what happened her - this not my thread !


Edited by rob1969 (30 Apr 2015 11.24am)

 

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View DanH's Profile DanH Flag SW2 30 Apr 15 11.37am Send a Private Message to DanH Add DanH as a friend

Nice to see the usual compassion on show here.

 

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View Johnny Eagles's Profile Johnny Eagles Flag berlin 30 Apr 15 11.41am Send a Private Message to Johnny Eagles Add Johnny Eagles as a friend

I think it's a bit f*cking rich, frankly, for Western so-called liberal nations to go round condemning other countries.

If it wasn't for the demand for drugs that so-called liberal countries tolerate then poorer countries who supply them wouldn't be riddled with crime and corruption.

If a country wants to send a strong deterrent message then it's up to them. I'm a bit ambivalent on the death penalty in principle, but I think this example acts as a pretty big warning. I bet spoilt Western kids will think twice before trafficking drugs through Indonesia again.

 


...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

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View johnfirewall's Profile johnfirewall Flag 30 Apr 15 12.48pm Send a Private Message to johnfirewall Add johnfirewall as a friend

Quote legaleagle at 29 Apr 2015 10.36pm

Quote Jimenez at 29 Apr 2015 9.59pm

Couldn't see a thread on this subject. I'm kind of surprised that this hasn't raised too many eye brows. I'm convinced if this had been done in The USA all the liberals & Lefties would have been out in force condemning it in the strongest possible way.


[Link]


Do you personally think the death sentence is appropriate for drug offences,Jimenez? Bear in mind,if a miscarriage of justice (and they do happen) comes out later,its too late for the accused.In the case of one of those scheduled to be killed,a new witness came forward at the 11th hour and their execution has been suspended.Day or two later and it would have been irrelevant...

Or is someone automatically to be dismissed as a "liberal" or a "leftie" for simply raising the point?

Edited by legaleagle (29 Apr 2015 10.38pm)

Any decent lefty should boybott these places with awful human rights. Dunno if that's his point but it's mine.

Perhaps specious but it's like the fairtrade coffee / coke habit anology someone used on here recently.

 

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 30 Apr 15 12.57pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

Quote Pawson Palace at 30 Apr 2015 8.30am

f*** them. They knew the risks and they accepted them when tried it. You can't play the game knowing the rules and then cry because you lost.

The dear old "grandma" tried taking 1.6kg of heroin that's not exactly personal use is it?

Just because she has a British passport does not exonerate her from what she did. They should handle her as they see fit on the grounds she had a fair trial.


^^spot bollok ^^

 


"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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View The Sash's Profile The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 30 Apr 15 1.18pm Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Quote Johnny Eagles at 30 Apr 2015 11.41am

I think it's a bit f*cking rich, frankly, for Western so-called liberal nations to go round condemning other countries.

If it wasn't for the demand for drugs that so-called liberal countries tolerate then poorer countries who supply them wouldn't be riddled with crime and corruption.

If a country wants to send a strong deterrent message then it's up to them. I'm a bit ambivalent on the death penalty in principle, but I think this example acts as a pretty big warning. I bet spoilt Western kids will think twice before trafficking drugs through Indonesia again.


Is the right answer.

Although personally not one for the death penalty for two reasons. Each one side of the pro / anti coin.

1 The risk of executing the innocent then saying oops sorry afterwards doesn't quite cut it for me

2. The punishment of physically decaying in some skanking Victorian prison for a lifetime, never seeing the sun as a free man again, one eye always looking behind you for fear of physical harm for the likes of an Ian Huntley fits the public punishment / retribution angle far better than a quick and easy death.

As for countries who exercise the death penalty for drugs. If you are willing to smuggle a kilo and a half knowing if you are caught you have every chance of being executed if you still choose to do it then tough s*** frankly...risk and reward innit - Get away with it and you make easy money, get caught you is f***ed - as Norman Stanley put it - Occupational Hazard

 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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View dannyh's Profile dannyh Flag wherever I lay my hat....... 30 Apr 15 1.26pm Send a Private Message to dannyh Add dannyh as a friend

If you cant do the time, dont do the crime.

 


"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 30 Apr 15 2.03pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Apr 2015 10.57am

Quote npn at 30 Apr 2015 10.41am

1. I oppose the death penalty, but it exists for drug offences in some countries

2. I believe justice in some of those countries is not fairly administered

3. They knew both 1&2 and decided to give it a go anyway - therefore the net result is "unlucky"

Problem with these countries, guilt is often determined by the same people being paid off by the primary drug traffickers. Their 'hardline' really is about protecting the monopoly of the trade, rather than any kind of justice, and frequently their trials involve questionable evidence, forced confessions and limited 'view of what constitutes' guilt. Trials can often be a farce of justice as well, along with the appeals process, and then the whole thing is generally utilized to serve political ambitions.

Reasonable doubt, for example, is rarely a consideration.

And of course usually they're the middle men, between the exporters and the importers. Often 'given up' to make it look like the country is 'doing its bit' - ie expendable costs of doing business. A variation on the Colombian 'Sacrifical Mule' (where in you send two mules on the same flight, and sacrifice one so as to reduce the risk to the primary mule).



In this case, the only one to protest her innocence is the one who got a last minute reprieve, as I understand it. So the fact that the law might be a bit corrupt is completely irrelevant (at least for the two we're hearing the most about - primarily because they're Australian - who have admitted their guilt)

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 30 Apr 15 2.25pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 30 Apr 2015 11.41am

I think it's a bit f*cking rich, frankly, for Western so-called liberal nations to go round condemning other countries.

If it wasn't for the demand for drugs that so-called liberal countries tolerate then poorer countries who supply them wouldn't be riddled with crime and corruption.

If a country wants to send a strong deterrent message then it's up to them. I'm a bit ambivalent on the death penalty in principle, but I think this example acts as a pretty big warning. I bet spoilt Western kids will think twice before trafficking drugs through Indonesia again.

Excepting the Aussies, the other shot were mostly it seems involved in smuggling drugs into the country (cocaine). Heroin tends to go out of Indonesia.

That said a number of those executed or to be executed were sentenced first to life, then had that knocked down to 20 years, and now back up to a death penalty.

Arguably if the Australian government didn't want them executed maybe they shouldn't have provided the information that lead to the their arrest and instead issued proceedings in Australia and extradited them.

Suspiciously absent of conviction or arrest is the 22 year old Thai woman who provided them with 8.3kg of heroin who goes by the name Cherry Likit.

By contrast Abu Bakar Bashir (a known terrorist, Al-Qaeda affiliate and now IS supporter) who was behind the three terrorist attacks, resulting in 220 deaths received 2.5 years, and had five months struck from his sentence as clemency

He was then later convicted of new terrorism charges and sentenced to 15 years, reduced to 9 on appeal.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 30 Apr 15 2.31pm

Quote npn at 30 Apr 2015 2.03pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Apr 2015 10.57am

Quote npn at 30 Apr 2015 10.41am

1. I oppose the death penalty, but it exists for drug offences in some countries

2. I believe justice in some of those countries is not fairly administered

3. They knew both 1&2 and decided to give it a go anyway - therefore the net result is "unlucky"

Problem with these countries, guilt is often determined by the same people being paid off by the primary drug traffickers. Their 'hardline' really is about protecting the monopoly of the trade, rather than any kind of justice, and frequently their trials involve questionable evidence, forced confessions and limited 'view of what constitutes' guilt. Trials can often be a farce of justice as well, along with the appeals process, and then the whole thing is generally utilized to serve political ambitions.

Reasonable doubt, for example, is rarely a consideration.

And of course usually they're the middle men, between the exporters and the importers. Often 'given up' to make it look like the country is 'doing its bit' - ie expendable costs of doing business. A variation on the Colombian 'Sacrifical Mule' (where in you send two mules on the same flight, and sacrifice one so as to reduce the risk to the primary mule).



In this case, the only one to protest her innocence is the one who got a last minute reprieve, as I understand it. So the fact that the law might be a bit corrupt is completely irrelevant (at least for the two we're hearing the most about - primarily because they're Australian - who have admitted their guilt)

I don't doubt they're guilty. As is usual in these cases the person who sold them the heroin wasn't arrested, or even named in what was a very well operated sting operation targeted 'at the scourge of drugs in Indonesia.

So whoever it was in Indonesia, who just happened to sell them the heroin, wasn't even named or seen or identified, only those who paid for it and were going to smuggle it out of the country.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 30 Apr 15 2.35pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 30 Apr 2015 11.41am

I think it's a bit f*cking rich, frankly, for Western so-called liberal nations to go round condemning other countries.

If it wasn't for the demand for drugs that so-called liberal countries tolerate then poorer countries who supply them wouldn't be riddled with crime and corruption.

If a country wants to send a strong deterrent message then it's up to them. I'm a bit ambivalent on the death penalty in principle, but I think this example acts as a pretty big warning. I bet spoilt Western kids will think twice before trafficking drugs through Indonesia again.

I doubt it, given the value of 8 kilos of heroin (here that's worth 3,200,000 on the street).


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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