Proportional Representation

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ambrose7 Croydon 11 May 15 10.45am
Also, under PR this year the Conservatives + UKIP would have 50%. Labour would have less votes than the Conservatives but add up all the left wing parties and they also make pretty much bang on 50%. Prime Minister/Chancellor etc. would still be Labour or Conservative but how do you decide which? It's just another false majority when you eventually get down to it. It's also the end of independent candidates, some of whom have secured election on the basis that their community wants them to represent them. Neither system is perfect, but PR has a lot of problems that need to be properly considered. 26th January 2010 - Enter Administration 2nd May 2010 - D-Day 1 - Survival at Hillsborough 1st June 2010 - D-Day 2 - Survival at Lloyds 7th June 2010 - CPFC2010 exchange contracts.
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ambrose7

Croydon 11 May 15 10.45am

Also, under PR this year the Conservatives + UKIP would have 50%.

Labour would have less votes than the Conservatives but add up all the left wing parties and they also make pretty much bang on 50%.

Prime Minister/Chancellor etc. would still be Labour or Conservative but how do you decide which? It's just another false majority when you eventually get down to it.

It's also the end of independent candidates, some of whom have secured election on the basis that their community wants them to represent them.

Neither system is perfect, but PR has a lot of problems that need to be properly considered.

26th January 2010 - Enter Administration
2nd May 2010 - D-Day 1 - Survival at Hillsborough
1st June 2010 - D-Day 2 - Survival at Lloyds
7th June 2010 - CPFC2010 exchange contracts.

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corkery Cork City 11 May 15 6.24pm
First Past the Post A- 30% B- 30% C- 40% 60% of people don't want C but he's elected anyway. We'll never die
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corkery

Cork City 11 May 15 6.24pm

First Past the Post

A- 30%
B- 30%
C- 40%

60% of people don't want C but he's elected anyway.

We'll never die

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jamiemartin721 Reading 11 May 15 8.44pm
Quote ambrose7 at 11 May 2015 10.45am Also, under PR this year the Conservatives + UKIP would have 50%. Labour would have less votes than the Conservatives but add up all the left wing parties and they also make pretty much bang on 50%. Prime Minister/Chancellor etc. would still be Labour or Conservative but how do you decide which? It's just another false majority when you eventually get down to it. It's also the end of independent candidates, some of whom have secured election on the basis that their community wants them to represent them. Neither system is perfect, but PR has a lot of problems that need to be properly considered. Too much I suppose to expect these over paid Oxford boys to actually co-operate, rather than just bicker at one another across party lines, and do what they paid to do. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 11 May 15 8.44pm

Quote ambrose7 at 11 May 2015 10.45am

Also, under PR this year the Conservatives + UKIP would have 50%.

Labour would have less votes than the Conservatives but add up all the left wing parties and they also make pretty much bang on 50%.

Prime Minister/Chancellor etc. would still be Labour or Conservative but how do you decide which? It's just another false majority when you eventually get down to it.

It's also the end of independent candidates, some of whom have secured election on the basis that their community wants them to represent them.

Neither system is perfect, but PR has a lot of problems that need to be properly considered.

Too much I suppose to expect these over paid Oxford boys to actually co-operate, rather than just bicker at one another across party lines, and do what they paid to do.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 11 May 15 8.45pm
Quote derben at 09 May 2015 11.04am We had a referendum on changing first-past-the-post and it was overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate. For a system that made even less sense and was even less democratic, and just about the same in representation "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 11 May 15 8.45pm

Quote derben at 09 May 2015 11.04am

We had a referendum on changing first-past-the-post and it was overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate.

For a system that made even less sense and was even less democratic, and just about the same in representation

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 11 May 15 8.47pm
Quote npn at 09 May 2015 4.21pm Quote derben at 09 May 2015 11.26am Quote JL85 at 09 May 2015 11.18am Quote derben at 09 May 2015 11.04am We had a referendum on changing first-past-the-post and it was overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate. That was a vote for AV, though. Not PR. Yes, but I very much suspect a referendum on full PR would give a similar result. The issue is very low on most voter's list of priorities. Minority parties can get elected via fptp. In 1945 there were loads: 6 Independents; 2 National; 1 Common Wealth; 2 Communists; 2 Nationalists; 2 National Independents; 2 Independent Labour; 2 Independent Conservative; 3 Ind Labour Party; 1 Independent Progressive; 2 Independent Liberals. I don't agree - I voted against AV, because it's a steaming pile of camel sh*t, but would have voted for true PR in a heartbeat. I don't imagine I'm the only one Me to, I want a democratic system that represents as many people as possible, not just one of two increasing similar flavours of government. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 11 May 15 8.47pm

Quote npn at 09 May 2015 4.21pm

Quote derben at 09 May 2015 11.26am

Quote JL85 at 09 May 2015 11.18am

Quote derben at 09 May 2015 11.04am

We had a referendum on changing first-past-the-post and it was overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate.

That was a vote for AV, though. Not PR.

Yes, but I very much suspect a referendum on full PR would give a similar result. The issue is very low on most voter's list of priorities.

Minority parties can get elected via fptp. In 1945 there were loads: 6 Independents; 2 National; 1 Common Wealth; 2 Communists; 2 Nationalists; 2 National Independents; 2 Independent Labour; 2 Independent Conservative; 3 Ind Labour Party; 1 Independent Progressive; 2 Independent Liberals.

I don't agree - I voted against AV, because it's a steaming pile of camel sh*t, but would have voted for true PR in a heartbeat. I don't imagine I'm the only one

Me to, I want a democratic system that represents as many people as possible, not just one of two increasing similar flavours of government.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 11 May 15 8.47pm
Quote derben at 11 May 2015 9.38am Ironically, the EU elections are by PR and we have lots of UKIP MEPs. There even used to be two BNP MEPs. Presumably those who clamour for PR are happy with that? Yes. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 11 May 15 8.47pm

Quote derben at 11 May 2015 9.38am

Ironically, the EU elections are by PR and we have lots of UKIP MEPs. There even used to be two BNP MEPs. Presumably those who clamour for PR are happy with that?

Yes.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Catfish Burgess Hill 12 May 15 8.14am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 May 2015 8.47pm Quote derben at 11 May 2015 9.38am Ironically, the EU elections are by PR and we have lots of UKIP MEPs. There even used to be two BNP MEPs. Presumably those who clamour for PR are happy with that? Yes. Not exactly happy, but it is an acceptable consequence because it is balanced by re-enfranchising all those people, including me, who live in "safe" seats whose votes are meaningless. I can't vote for the party I want, all I can do is vote for whoever might get the incumbent out. PR would make the electoral process relevant for millions of people like those Tory voters in Scotland or Labour voters in the leafy shires. Edited by Catfish (12 May 2015 8.15am) Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial
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Catfish

Burgess Hill 12 May 15 8.14am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 May 2015 8.47pm

Quote derben at 11 May 2015 9.38am

Ironically, the EU elections are by PR and we have lots of UKIP MEPs. There even used to be two BNP MEPs. Presumably those who clamour for PR are happy with that?

Yes.

Not exactly happy, but it is an acceptable consequence because it is balanced by re-enfranchising all those people, including me, who live in "safe" seats whose votes are meaningless. I can't vote for the party I want, all I can do is vote for whoever might get the incumbent out. PR would make the electoral process relevant for millions of people like those Tory voters in Scotland or Labour voters in the leafy shires.

Edited by Catfish (12 May 2015 8.15am)

Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial

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npn Crowborough 12 May 15 8.21am
Quote Catfish at 12 May 2015 8.14am Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 May 2015 8.47pm Quote derben at 11 May 2015 9.38am Ironically, the EU elections are by PR and we have lots of UKIP MEPs. There even used to be two BNP MEPs. Presumably those who clamour for PR are happy with that? Yes. Not exactly happy, but it is an acceptable consequence because it is balanced by re-enfranchising all those people, including me, who live in "safe" seats whose votes are meaningless. I can't vote for the party I want, all I can do is vote for whoever might get the incumbent out. PR would make the electoral process relevant for millions of people like those Tory voters in Scotland or Labour voters in the leafy shires. Edited by Catfish (12 May 2015 8.15am) Agreed. It would make tactical voting much less necessary. No point voting Tory in Scotland, or Labour anywhere south of London. At least under PR your vote for the party with the policies you actually believe in counts for something
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npn

Crowborough 12 May 15 8.21am

Quote Catfish at 12 May 2015 8.14am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 May 2015 8.47pm

Quote derben at 11 May 2015 9.38am

Ironically, the EU elections are by PR and we have lots of UKIP MEPs. There even used to be two BNP MEPs. Presumably those who clamour for PR are happy with that?

Yes.

Edited by Catfish (12 May 2015 8.15am)

Agreed.
It would make tactical voting much less necessary. No point voting Tory in Scotland, or Labour anywhere south of London. At least under PR your vote for the party with the policies you actually believe in counts for something

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Johnny Eagles berlin 12 May 15 8.29am
Immediately after the election I thought it was a travesty and would have voted 'yes' if there had been a PR referendum. Last night I heard an interview with an SNP backbencher and it made me grateful for FPTP! If parliament suddenly got filled with all kinds of jokers and charlatans from the Greens and UKIP... not sure that'd be great. Mind you, you can argue that the parties would quickly become more professional under PR. Anyway, I'm returning to my previous position. PR is good if we all want to vote along national lines. FPTP is better for the constituency link. Maybe there could be some kind of happy medium, a local MP based on FPTP and a second vote which gets counted proportionally. Are there any countries who do something like that? ...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...
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Johnny Eagles

berlin 12 May 15 8.29am

Immediately after the election I thought it was a travesty and would have voted 'yes' if there had been a PR referendum.

Last night I heard an interview with an SNP backbencher and it made me grateful for FPTP! If parliament suddenly got filled with all kinds of jokers and charlatans from the Greens and UKIP... not sure that'd be great.

Mind you, you can argue that the parties would quickly become more professional under PR.

Anyway, I'm returning to my previous position. PR is good if we all want to vote along national lines. FPTP is better for the constituency link. Maybe there could be some kind of happy medium, a local MP based on FPTP and a second vote which gets counted proportionally.

Are there any countries who do something like that?

...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 12 May 15 8.40am
Quote Johnny Eagles at 12 May 2015 8.29am Immediately after the election I thought it was a travesty and would have voted 'yes' if there had been a PR referendum. When in 2011 the electorate were asked in a referendum if they wanted to abandon the first past the post system for a more 'Proportional' system the answer was a clear NO. And Farage's comments that the result leaves millions unrepresented is hogwash. Edited by Willo (12 May 2015 8.42am)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 12 May 15 8.40am

Quote Johnny Eagles at 12 May 2015 8.29am

Immediately after the election I thought it was a travesty and would have voted 'yes' if there had been a PR referendum.

When in 2011 the electorate were asked in a referendum if they wanted to abandon the first past the post system for a more 'Proportional' system the answer was a clear NO.

And Farage's comments that the result leaves millions unrepresented is hogwash.

Edited by Willo (12 May 2015 8.42am)

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imbored UK 12 May 15 8.53am
Quote Willo at 12 May 2015 8.40am Quote Johnny Eagles at 12 May 2015 8.29am Immediately after the election I thought it was a travesty and would have voted 'yes' if there had been a PR referendum. When in 2011 the electorate were asked in a referendum if they wanted to abandon the first past the post system for a more 'Proportional' system the answer was a clear NO. And Farage's comments that the result leaves millions unrepresented is hogwash. Edited by Willo (12 May 2015 8.42am) That's not really the full picture though. A great many PR supporters on here and elsewhere hated AV too. Also, let us not forget how deplorable and manipulative the campaign to get a NO vote was. Attachment: ab.jpg (57.86Kb)
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imbored

UK 12 May 15 8.53am

Quote Willo at 12 May 2015 8.40am

Quote Johnny Eagles at 12 May 2015 8.29am

Immediately after the election I thought it was a travesty and would have voted 'yes' if there had been a PR referendum.

When in 2011 the electorate were asked in a referendum if they wanted to abandon the first past the post system for a more 'Proportional' system the answer was a clear NO.

And Farage's comments that the result leaves millions unrepresented is hogwash.

Edited by Willo (12 May 2015 8.42am)

That's not really the full picture though. A great many PR supporters on here and elsewhere hated AV too. Also, let us not forget how deplorable and manipulative the campaign to get a NO vote was.

Attachment: ab.jpg (57.86Kb)

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npn Crowborough 12 May 15 8.57am
Quote Willo at 12 May 2015 8.40am Quote Johnny Eagles at 12 May 2015 8.29am Immediately after the election I thought it was a travesty and would have voted 'yes' if there had been a PR referendum. When in 2011 the electorate were asked in a referendum if they wanted to abandon the first past the post system for a more 'Proportional' system the answer was a clear NO. And Farage's comments that the result leaves millions unrepresented is hogwash. Edited by Willo (12 May 2015 8.42am) How many times? What was offered in preference to FPTP was cr@p, and I voted against it on the grounds that "if they go with AV, then we'll never get PR because you won't be changing voting system twice in quick succession". It's like claiming kids don't prefer sweets to brussells sprouts because you asked if they'd like a bag of aniseed balls and they said no (because nobody likes aniseed balls). Had they offered PR, I and many others would have gone for it. Also, While I dislike Farage's views, he's spot on - 4 million (I think) people voted UKIP and got 1 MP. How can you possibly claim that those 4 million are represented? Ditto the Greens.
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npn

Crowborough 12 May 15 8.57am

Quote Willo at 12 May 2015 8.40am

Quote Johnny Eagles at 12 May 2015 8.29am

Immediately after the election I thought it was a travesty and would have voted 'yes' if there had been a PR referendum.

When in 2011 the electorate were asked in a referendum if they wanted to abandon the first past the post system for a more 'Proportional' system the answer was a clear NO.

And Farage's comments that the result leaves millions unrepresented is hogwash.

Edited by Willo (12 May 2015 8.42am)

How many times? What was offered in preference to FPTP was cr@p, and I voted against it on the grounds that "if they go with AV, then we'll never get PR because you won't be changing voting system twice in quick succession". It's like claiming kids don't prefer sweets to brussells sprouts because you asked if they'd like a bag of aniseed balls and they said no (because nobody likes aniseed balls).

Had they offered PR, I and many others would have gone for it.

Also, While I dislike Farage's views, he's spot on - 4 million (I think) people voted UKIP and got 1 MP. How can you possibly claim that those 4 million are represented? Ditto the Greens.

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