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EU Referendum - In or Out?

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imbored UK 09 May 15 11.23pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 09 May 2015 11.09pm Quote imbored at 09 May 2015 10.24pm Really? If the tories run a criminally skewed pro EU campaign, much like their PR one, with a biased question resulting in a resounding NO vote, will you feel the same way? This is short sighted. Under PR the tories would still have a very significant number of seats (240+), only UKIP would have 80+ too to hold them to an unbiased question and fair media representation of the facts either way. You're in for an unpleasant surprise if you really think the Tories are going to give you that. I'm not even anti EU but I recognise that a Tory majority under FPTP is much, much less likely to result in an exit from the EU than if this particular election had PR in place. The numbers demonstrate that. Edited by imbored (09 May 2015 10.26pm) I detest and detested coalition ....And it was only a tiny taste of PR style politics. You can be a PR fanboy if you like but for me...While I recognise that PR is a fairer system....In the end I look at the practical results of the PR system. This is the result: poor governance. You can desire the Italian political system all you like but FPTP has the advantages of being able to really judge a party upon its decisions in power. Not a mish mash of compromises that rarely achieves any direction at all. Yes, FPTP was unfair on Ukip just like it was in the past to the Lib Dems......But Ukip are a protest party anyway and while I'm happy with the votes total they achieved....For me it's not about actual power....It's about pressure....And that's been achieved. Despite what some on the left say Ukip's votes won't be ignored. I vote for principles I believe in...Like most...I'm not tied to a party. It's not a matter of being a fan of something or not. It's the stone cold facts, that if this election had been PR there would've been a much more 'locked in' unbiased EU vote based on the numbers. We all know that UKIP are a one issue party and success on that front would've been more certain under PR this time around. As farage himself knows. Since this is the issue you blessed FPTP for I just thought I'd highlight the facts. If the tories f*** people over with this, that's another five years of waiting. As for pressure, the Conservatives got to see for themselves the vote ceiling that UKIP hit, and that momentum took a real body blow with Nigel losing his seat, and only achieving one seat in total. This impacts the 'pressure'. And when a biased yes/no question is presented ans fails, where on earth is the motivation to do anything about it going to come from. As with any major party the tories know what to do to press the right buttons, and by the sounds of it it seems like they've duped people in this one. Edited by imbored (09 May 2015 11.34pm)
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imbored

UK 09 May 15 11.23pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 May 2015 11.09pm

Quote imbored at 09 May 2015 10.24pm

Really? If the tories run a criminally skewed pro EU campaign, much like their PR one, with a biased question resulting in a resounding NO vote, will you feel the same way? This is short sighted. Under PR the tories would still have a very significant number of seats (240+), only UKIP would have 80+ too to hold them to an unbiased question and fair media representation of the facts either way. You're in for an unpleasant surprise if you really think the Tories are going to give you that.

I'm not even anti EU but I recognise that a Tory majority under FPTP is much, much less likely to result in an exit from the EU than if this particular election had PR in place. The numbers demonstrate that.

Edited by imbored (09 May 2015 10.26pm)

I detest and detested coalition ....And it was only a tiny taste of PR style politics.

You can be a PR fanboy if you like but for me...While I recognise that PR is a fairer system....In the end I look at the practical results of the PR system.

This is the result: poor governance.

You can desire the Italian political system all you like but FPTP has the advantages of being able to really judge a party upon its decisions in power.

Not a mish mash of compromises that rarely achieves any direction at all.

Yes, FPTP was unfair on Ukip just like it was in the past to the Lib Dems......But Ukip are a protest party anyway and while I'm happy with the votes total they achieved....For me it's not about actual power....It's about pressure....And that's been achieved. Despite what some on the left say Ukip's votes won't be ignored.

I vote for principles I believe in...Like most...I'm not tied to a party.

It's not a matter of being a fan of something or not. It's the stone cold facts, that if this election had been PR there would've been a much more 'locked in' unbiased EU vote based on the numbers. We all know that UKIP are a one issue party and success on that front would've been more certain under PR this time around. As farage himself knows. Since this is the issue you blessed FPTP for I just thought I'd highlight the facts.

If the tories f*** people over with this, that's another five years of waiting. As for pressure, the Conservatives got to see for themselves the vote ceiling that UKIP hit, and that momentum took a real body blow with Nigel losing his seat, and only achieving one seat in total. This impacts the 'pressure'. And when a biased yes/no question is presented ans fails, where on earth is the motivation to do anything about it going to come from. As with any major party the tories know what to do to press the right buttons, and by the sounds of it it seems like they've duped people in this one.

Edited by imbored (09 May 2015 11.34pm)

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Stirlingsays 09 May 15 11.33pm
Quote imbored at 09 May 2015 11.23pm It's not a matter of being a fan of something or not. It's the stone cold facts, that if this election had been PR there would've been a much more 'locked in' unbiased EU vote based on the numbers. We all know that UKIP are a one issue party and success on that front would've been more certain under PR this time around. As farage himself knows. Since this is the issue you blessed FPTP for I just thought I'd highlight the facts. If the tories f*** people over with this, that's another five years of waiting. As for pressure, the Conservatives got to see for themselves the vote ceiling that UKIP hit, and that momentum took a real body blow with Nigel losing his seat, and only achieving one seat in total. This impacts the 'pressure'. And when a biased yes/no question is presented ans fails, where on earth is the motivation to do anything about it going to come from. As with any major party the tories know what to do to press the right buttons, and by the sounds of it it seems like they've duped people in this one. Like I say, I look at the practical result....Italian style politics over the last few decades is there for you to see.....PR is fairer but its practical result is a paraphrase of that old saying....'A donkey is a horse built by committee'. I don't want that for Britain.....Whether the government is left or right....I want to judge them upon their programme in power....Not forced compromises. As for Tories not regarding Ukip's votes seriously because they can't hurt them in many seats I think you are perhaps being short-sighted.....With a point I know the Tories certainly recognise. If the Tories don't satisfy the Ukip question....Then all it takes is for Labour to sort themselves out and this time elect a leader who looks credible and the Tories will be in massive trouble....They will need those Ukip votes. The Tories sort out the Ukip problem this parliament or they lose power.....Unless Labour elect another weak leader again. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 May 2015 11.34pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

09 May 15 11.33pm

Quote imbored at 09 May 2015 11.23pm

It's not a matter of being a fan of something or not. It's the stone cold facts, that if this election had been PR there would've been a much more 'locked in' unbiased EU vote based on the numbers. We all know that UKIP are a one issue party and success on that front would've been more certain under PR this time around. As farage himself knows. Since this is the issue you blessed FPTP for I just thought I'd highlight the facts.

Like I say, I look at the practical result....Italian style politics over the last few decades is there for you to see.....PR is fairer but its practical result is a paraphrase of that old saying....'A donkey is a horse built by committee'.

I don't want that for Britain.....Whether the government is left or right....I want to judge them upon their programme in power....Not forced compromises.

As for Tories not regarding Ukip's votes seriously because they can't hurt them in many seats I think you are perhaps being short-sighted.....With a point I know the Tories certainly recognise.

If the Tories don't satisfy the Ukip question....Then all it takes is for Labour to sort themselves out and this time elect a leader who looks credible and the Tories will be in massive trouble....They will need those Ukip votes.

The Tories sort out the Ukip problem this parliament or they lose power.....Unless Labour elect another weak leader again.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 May 2015 11.34pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Tom-the-eagle Croydon 09 May 15 11.39pm
How the hell can the Tories hold a referendum when they don't want us to leave?The whole thing will be fixed beyond belief. They are even planning to let the EU immigrants who currently live here vote! for Fxxx sake, really? "It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit
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Tom-the-eagle

Croydon 09 May 15 11.39pm

How the hell can the Tories hold a referendum when they don't want us to leave?The whole thing will be fixed beyond belief. They are even planning to let the EU immigrants who currently live here vote! for Fxxx sake, really?

"It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit

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imbored UK 09 May 15 11.39pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 09 May 2015 11.33pm Quote imbored at 09 May 2015 11.23pm It's not a matter of being a fan of something or not. It's the stone cold facts, that if this election had been PR there would've been a much more 'locked in' unbiased EU vote based on the numbers. We all know that UKIP are a one issue party and success on that front would've been more certain under PR this time around. As farage himself knows. Since this is the issue you blessed FPTP for I just thought I'd highlight the facts. If the tories f*** people over with this, that's another five years of waiting. As for pressure, the Conservatives got to see for themselves the vote ceiling that UKIP hit, and that momentum took a real body blow with Nigel losing his seat, and only achieving one seat in total. This impacts the 'pressure'. And when a biased yes/no question is presented ans fails, where on earth is the motivation to do anything about it going to come from. As with any major party the tories know what to do to press the right buttons, and by the sounds of it it seems like they've duped people in this one. Like I say, I look at the practical result....Italian style politics over the last few decades is there for you to see.....PR is fairer but its practical result is a paraphrase of that old saying....'A donkey is a horse built by committee'. I don't want that for Britain.....Whether the government is left or right....I want to judge them upon their programme in power....Not forced compromises. As for Tories not regarding Ukip's votes seriously because they can't hurt them in many seats I think you are perhaps being short-sighted.....With a point I know the Tories certainly recognise. If the Tories don't satisfy the Ukip question....Then all it takes is for Labour to sort themselves out and this time elect a leader who looks credible and the Tories will be in massive trouble....They will need those Ukip votes. The Tories sort out the Ukip problem this parliament or they lose power.....Unless Labour elect another weak leader again. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 May 2015 11.34pm) It depends if we're talking about PR in this election alone or a system in general. Your previous reply seemed like you were thanking the current system for a potential EU vote. I was just stating that this time around a fair EU vote would've irrefutably been more likely under PR based on the numbers. I definitely see there being a vote, but there's already a blueprint for how to skew that to high heaven. The EU doesn't want us to leave, the US doesn't want us to, and Cameron doesn't. Those in power get what they want. If we don't truly appreciate that already, we'll get to experience it in 2017. As for Labour, unless David Miliband cuts his US stay short, I'm not sure I hold out much hope for them. Edited by imbored (10 May 2015 12.32am)
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imbored

UK 09 May 15 11.39pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 May 2015 11.33pm

Quote imbored at 09 May 2015 11.23pm

I don't want that for Britain.....Whether the government is left or right....I want to judge them upon their programme in power....Not forced compromises.

As for Tories not regarding Ukip's votes seriously because they can't hurt them in many seats I think you are perhaps being short-sighted.....With a point I know the Tories certainly recognise.

The Tories sort out the Ukip problem this parliament or they lose power.....Unless Labour elect another weak leader again.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 May 2015 11.34pm)

It depends if we're talking about PR in this election alone or a system in general. Your previous reply seemed like you were thanking the current system for a potential EU vote. I was just stating that this time around a fair EU vote would've irrefutably been more likely under PR based on the numbers.

I definitely see there being a vote, but there's already a blueprint for how to skew that to high heaven. The EU doesn't want us to leave, the US doesn't want us to, and Cameron doesn't. Those in power get what they want. If we don't truly appreciate that already, we'll get to experience it in 2017.

As for Labour, unless David Miliband cuts his US stay short, I'm not sure I hold out much hope for them.

Edited by imbored (10 May 2015 12.32am)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 May 15 10.50am
In In Ultimately I don't think anyone really is sure of the consequences of leaving, and so the fear of out will win the day. Bit like Scotish independence, the SNP have a massive support basis, but that does translate as an out vote. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 May 15 10.50am

In
In

Ultimately I don't think anyone really is sure of the consequences of leaving, and so the fear of out will win the day. Bit like Scotish independence, the SNP have a massive support basis, but that does translate as an out vote.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 May 15 10.55am
Quote Tom-the-eagle at 09 May 2015 11.39pm How the hell can the Tories hold a referendum when they don't want us to leave?The whole thing will be fixed beyond belief. They are even planning to let the EU immigrants who currently live here vote! for Fxxx sake, really? I think that's something positive to say about the conservatives, that they will hold a referendum on something they don't want. Only UK citizens (and non-domiciled Citzens) have previously been able to vote in the refendum "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 May 15 10.55am

Quote Tom-the-eagle at 09 May 2015 11.39pm

I think that's something positive to say about the conservatives, that they will hold a referendum on something they don't want.

Only UK citizens (and non-domiciled Citzens) have previously been able to vote in the refendum

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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davidnorris Norfolk 10 May 15 10.56am
Out Out Out Norfolk - Gods County.......Love life love Palace!!
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davidnorris

Norfolk 10 May 15 10.56am

Out Out Out

Norfolk - Gods County.......Love life love Palace!!

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legaleagle 10 May 15 11.10am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 10 May 2015 10.55am Quote Tom-the-eagle at 09 May 2015 11.39pm How the hell can the Tories hold a referendum when they don't want us to leave?The whole thing will be fixed beyond belief. They are even planning to let the EU immigrants who currently live here vote! for Fxxx sake, really? I think that's something positive to say about the conservatives, that they will hold a referendum on something they don't want. Only UK citizens (and non-domiciled Citzens) have previously been able to vote in the refendum Commonwealth and EU citizens living in Scotland had a vote in the Scotland referendum Commonwealth and Irish nationals had a vote in the AV referendum. Edited by legaleagle (10 May 2015 11.13am)
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legaleagle

10 May 15 11.10am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 10 May 2015 10.55am

Quote Tom-the-eagle at 09 May 2015 11.39pm

I think that's something positive to say about the conservatives, that they will hold a referendum on something they don't want.

Only UK citizens (and non-domiciled Citzens) have previously been able to vote in the refendum

Commonwealth and EU citizens living in Scotland had a vote in the Scotland referendum

Commonwealth and Irish nationals had a vote in the AV referendum.

Edited by legaleagle (10 May 2015 11.13am)

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Stirlingsays 10 May 15 11.22am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 10 May 2015 10.50am In In Ultimately I don't think anyone really is sure of the consequences of leaving, and so the fear of out will win the day. Bit like Scotish independence, the SNP have a massive support basis, but that does translate as an out vote. God....how depressing. I very much doubt though that the vote won't happen without the EU offering up a deal on 'freedom of movement' and other titbits. It would swing quite a few. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 May 15 11.22am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 10 May 2015 10.50am

In
In

God....how depressing.

I very much doubt though that the vote won't happen without the EU offering up a deal on 'freedom of movement' and other titbits.

It would swing quite a few.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 10 May 15 11.25am
Quote legaleagle at 10 May 2015 11.10am Commonwealth and EU citizens living in Scotland had a vote in the Scotland referendum Commonwealth and Irish nationals had a vote in the AV referendum. Edited by legaleagle (10 May 2015 11.13am) They bleeding well shouldn't be voting on these matters. Though I suppose 'no taxation without representation'.....Still, it's bleeding annoying. Edited by Stirlingsays (10 May 2015 11.26am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 May 15 11.25am

Quote legaleagle at 10 May 2015 11.10am

Commonwealth and EU citizens living in Scotland had a vote in the Scotland referendum

Commonwealth and Irish nationals had a vote in the AV referendum.

Edited by legaleagle (10 May 2015 11.13am)

They bleeding well shouldn't be voting on these matters.

Though I suppose 'no taxation without representation'.....Still, it's bleeding annoying.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 May 2015 11.26am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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legaleagle 10 May 15 11.27am
It will be v interesting to see what they offer.I don't think they will offer anything on freedom of movement as a principle (especially given Switzerland and Norway both had to agree it to even have an association agreement) but there may be be something along the lines of new arrivals not being able to access some state benefits for a longer period.
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legaleagle

10 May 15 11.27am

It will be v interesting to see what they offer.I don't think they will offer anything on freedom of movement as a principle (especially given Switzerland and Norway both had to agree it to even have an association agreement) but there may be be something along the lines of new arrivals not being able to access some state benefits for a longer period.

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legaleagle 10 May 15 11.29am
Quote Stirlingsays at 10 May 2015 11.25am Quote legaleagle at 10 May 2015 11.10am Commonwealth and EU citizens living in Scotland had a vote in the Scotland referendum Commonwealth and Irish nationals had a vote in the AV referendum. Edited by legaleagle (10 May 2015 11.13am) They bleeding well shouldn't be voting on these matters. Though I suppose 'no taxation without representation'.....Still, it's bleeding annoying. Edited by Stirlingsays (10 May 2015 11.26am) Should we get rid of Irish and Commonwealth nationals voting in parliamentary elections?
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legaleagle

10 May 15 11.29am

Quote Stirlingsays at 10 May 2015 11.25am

Quote legaleagle at 10 May 2015 11.10am

Commonwealth and EU citizens living in Scotland had a vote in the Scotland referendum

Commonwealth and Irish nationals had a vote in the AV referendum.

Edited by legaleagle (10 May 2015 11.13am)

They bleeding well shouldn't be voting on these matters.

Though I suppose 'no taxation without representation'.....Still, it's bleeding annoying.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 May 2015 11.26am)

Should we get rid of Irish and Commonwealth nationals voting in parliamentary elections?

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