Greece on the Edge

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Ray in Houston Houston 06 Jul 15 5.47pm
Quote johnfirewall at 06 Jul 2015 5.08pm I'm afraid that's a bit simplistic. It's was hardly just consumer finance and in fact even some of the larger loans in US i.e. mortgages were guaranteed up the chain through Ginnie Mae. You're then assuming individuals aren't just going to borrow more, which we all know they did, just at higher rates. It was a simple problem wrapped up in complex financial structures that were used to hide the underlying fraud: the collapse of the liquidity of the mortgage debt that was underpinning bank liquidity is what lead to the crash. If you fix the underlying liquidity issue, then you fix the banks' liquidity issue. If you do that, and then regulate the lending market (such regulations had been systematically stripped bare in the preceding years), you avoid its repeat. The only reason it seems more complicated than that is because there's money to be made in the fog of obfuscation. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 06 Jul 15 5.47pm

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Quote johnfirewall at 06 Jul 2015 5.08pm

I'm afraid that's a bit simplistic. It's was hardly just consumer finance and in fact even some of the larger loans in US i.e. mortgages were guaranteed up the chain through Ginnie Mae.

You're then assuming individuals aren't just going to borrow more, which we all know they did, just at higher rates.

It was a simple problem wrapped up in complex financial structures that were used to hide the underlying fraud: the collapse of the liquidity of the mortgage debt that was underpinning bank liquidity is what lead to the crash.

If you fix the underlying liquidity issue, then you fix the banks' liquidity issue. If you do that, and then regulate the lending market (such regulations had been systematically stripped bare in the preceding years), you avoid its repeat.

The only reason it seems more complicated than that is because there's money to be made in the fog of obfuscation.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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chris123 hove actually 06 Jul 15 5.56pm
Quote nickgusset at 06 Jul 2015 5.02pm [Link] Well worth a read. The problem is that it doesn't go far enough back - Greece has been running large current account deficits since the early 90's.
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chris123

hove actually 06 Jul 15 5.56pm

Quote nickgusset at 06 Jul 2015 5.02pm

[Link]

Well worth a read.

The problem is that it doesn't go far enough back - Greece has been running large current account deficits since the early 90's.

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Stirlingsays 06 Jul 15 6.02pm
Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 11.26am I'm naturally a conservative, I believe in a smaller state and personal responsibility. But at least SYRIZA, Tsipras and Varoufakis are trying to change things for the better and give their country a bit of dignity. If I was Greek, I'd have voted for them and voted 'NO'. Yep, I'm with you there. I think the common man/woman in Greece has been hugely damaged by the EU and Greek's politicians. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

06 Jul 15 6.02pm

Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 11.26am

I'm naturally a conservative, I believe in a smaller state and personal responsibility. But at least SYRIZA, Tsipras and Varoufakis are trying to change things for the better and give their country a bit of dignity. If I was Greek, I'd have voted for them and voted 'NO'.

Yep, I'm with you there.

I think the common man/woman in Greece has been hugely damaged by the EU and Greek's politicians.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 06 Jul 15 6.07pm
Quote nickgusset at 06 Jul 2015 5.13pm I'm seriously thinking of rejoining labour just so I can vote for Corbyn. I'm not adverse to Labour having a leftie as a leader.....The old left offer an actual alternative......But come on.....Corbyn's an idiot. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jul 2015 6.16pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

06 Jul 15 6.07pm

Quote nickgusset at 06 Jul 2015 5.13pm

I'm seriously thinking of rejoining labour just so I can vote for Corbyn.

I'm not adverse to Labour having a leftie as a leader.....The old left offer an actual alternative......But come on.....Corbyn's an idiot.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jul 2015 6.16pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 06 Jul 15 6.14pm
Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 5.56pm Quote nickgusset at 06 Jul 2015 5.02pm [Link] Well worth a read. The problem is that it doesn't go far enough back - Greece has been running large current account deficits since the early 90's. Haven't many governments run defecits in the past? I take it that you agree with the main tenet of the argument that banks are just lining their pockets on the back of a publicly funded bank bailout that is responsible for 90% of Greek debt. Do you agree that publicly owned services were sold off dirt cheap to raise money (hmm post office anyone)to help finance the debt caused by those that are benefitting from getting hold of public services on the cheap?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 06 Jul 15 6.14pm

Quote chris123 at 06 Jul 2015 5.56pm

Quote nickgusset at 06 Jul 2015 5.02pm

[Link]

Well worth a read.

The problem is that it doesn't go far enough back - Greece has been running large current account deficits since the early 90's.

Haven't many governments run defecits in the past?

I take it that you agree with the main tenet of the argument that banks are just lining their pockets on the back of a publicly funded bank bailout that is responsible for 90% of Greek debt.

Do you agree that publicly owned services were sold off dirt cheap to raise money (hmm post office anyone)to help finance the debt caused by those that are benefitting from getting hold of public services on the cheap?

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We are goin up! Coulsdon 06 Jul 15 6.16pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 5.09pm Behave yourself. I gave the examples of the Olympics and the Metro system as examples of Greek corruption and incompetence....are you suggesting they didn't have an effect? Have you been to Greece and witnessed the pace of life there? They need a collective rocket up their arses to become competitive and profitable instead of granting ridiculously early retirement ages with outrageously generous benefit levels. I couldn't care less about Stirling's views and WAGU (whoever she is?). I look at situations and make my own mind up and quite obviously Greece have fcuked up bigtime here. Luckily for us, there are enough sane credible people to keep out people like you, Miliband and Balls from creating the same sh1t here. You are so out of touch you believe that Corbyn will be a good leader for Labour and therefore a prospective Prime Minister.... get a grip man. WAGU is me Made the username when I was 14 and stuck with it. Live and learn. Sorry Hoof, I agree with you on the last two paragraphs (would laugh for weeks if they put Corbyn in) but you're pretty wrong on Greece, you're just ignoring fact. You simply cannot compare Greece to the UK (as, to be fair, Conservative HQ have done to great effect) because they're completely different nations in different situations. Greece are in a monetary union, and stuck in it. The causes of this are basically down to corruption of the political elite AND the German banks. Now, the political elite gained a lot monetarily from these shady lending deals, and so did the German banks of course. These politicians built up a system (through dodgy backhanders) whereby they stayed in power if the rich weren't forced to pay their taxes. The political elite have since lost all their power to the only party challenging them. Syriza have at promised to fight corruption and high level tax evasion by the very rich. Since you think corruption and poor tax collection is the root cause of Greece's problems, wouldn't you say that this is a good thing? I fail to see what else the Greek government can do, they have exhausted all their other choices. I repeat, they've slashed wages by 40%. Forty! They've slashed pensions by 50%. Imagine if your pension was cut in half! Unemployment is 25%, youth unemployment 50% and all the talented youths are leaving for sunnier climbs elsewhere. A brain drain. This is not any old recession in Greece, this is a great depression. And what you and others propose is that Greece should somehow punish its poor and working class even further? Is that really wise? I'm all for fiscal responsibility, I'm a Conservative, but one should also be compassionate and make sure that everyone pays their fair share. The democratically elected Greek government has been given no support from their creditors to actually fight these problems. Why is it that Germany flat out refuses to restructure any debt? It couldn't be that it would be too politically dangerous at home, could it? Or that their banks would revolt? They're not exactly whiter than white! You seem to support the right like you would a football team. It simply shouldn't be like that. Practical solutions to problems is what is needed. The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
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We are goin up!

Coulsdon 06 Jul 15 6.16pm

Send a Private Message to We are goin up!

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 5.09pm

Behave yourself.

I gave the examples of the Olympics and the Metro system as examples of Greek corruption and incompetence....are you suggesting they didn't have an effect? Have you been to Greece and witnessed the pace of life there? They need a collective rocket up their arses to become competitive and profitable instead of granting ridiculously early retirement ages with outrageously generous benefit levels.

I couldn't care less about Stirling's views and WAGU (whoever she is?).

I look at situations and make my own mind up and quite obviously Greece have fcuked up bigtime here.

Luckily for us, there are enough sane credible people to keep out people like you, Miliband and Balls from creating the same sh1t here.

You are so out of touch you believe that Corbyn will be a good leader for Labour and therefore a prospective Prime Minister.... get a grip man.

WAGU is me Made the username when I was 14 and stuck with it. Live and learn.

Sorry Hoof, I agree with you on the last two paragraphs (would laugh for weeks if they put Corbyn in) but you're pretty wrong on Greece, you're just ignoring fact.

You simply cannot compare Greece to the UK (as, to be fair, Conservative HQ have done to great effect) because they're completely different nations in different situations.

Greece are in a monetary union, and stuck in it. The causes of this are basically down to corruption of the political elite AND the German banks. Now, the political elite gained a lot monetarily from these shady lending deals, and so did the German banks of course. These politicians built up a system (through dodgy backhanders) whereby they stayed in power if the rich weren't forced to pay their taxes. The political elite have since lost all their power to the only party challenging them. Syriza have at promised to fight corruption and high level tax evasion by the very rich.

Since you think corruption and poor tax collection is the root cause of Greece's problems, wouldn't you say that this is a good thing?

I fail to see what else the Greek government can do, they have exhausted all their other choices. I repeat, they've slashed wages by 40%. Forty! They've slashed pensions by 50%. Imagine if your pension was cut in half! Unemployment is 25%, youth unemployment 50% and all the talented youths are leaving for sunnier climbs elsewhere. A brain drain.

This is not any old recession in Greece, this is a great depression. And what you and others propose is that Greece should somehow punish its poor and working class even further? Is that really wise? I'm all for fiscal responsibility, I'm a Conservative, but one should also be compassionate and make sure that everyone pays their fair share.

The democratically elected Greek government has been given no support from their creditors to actually fight these problems.

Why is it that Germany flat out refuses to restructure any debt? It couldn't be that it would be too politically dangerous at home, could it? Or that their banks would revolt? They're not exactly whiter than white!

You seem to support the right like you would a football team. It simply shouldn't be like that. Practical solutions to problems is what is needed.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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Stuk Top half 06 Jul 15 6.23pm
Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 6.16pm Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 5.09pm Behave yourself. I gave the examples of the Olympics and the Metro system as examples of Greek corruption and incompetence....are you suggesting they didn't have an effect? Have you been to Greece and witnessed the pace of life there? They need a collective rocket up their arses to become competitive and profitable instead of granting ridiculously early retirement ages with outrageously generous benefit levels. I couldn't care less about Stirling's views and WAGU (whoever she is?). I look at situations and make my own mind up and quite obviously Greece have fcuked up bigtime here. Luckily for us, there are enough sane credible people to keep out people like you, Miliband and Balls from creating the same sh1t here. You are so out of touch you believe that Corbyn will be a good leader for Labour and therefore a prospective Prime Minister.... get a grip man. WAGU is me Made the username when I was 14 and stuck with it. Live and learn. Sorry Hoof, I agree with you on the last two paragraphs (would laugh for weeks if they put Corbyn in) but you're pretty wrong on Greece, you're just ignoring fact. You simply cannot compare Greece to the UK (as, to be fair, Conservative HQ have done to great effect) because they're completely different nations in different situations. Greece are in a monetary union, and stuck in it. The causes of this are basically down to corruption of the political elite AND the German banks. Now, the political elite gained a lot monetarily from these shady lending deals, and so did the German banks of course. These politicians built up a system (through dodgy backhanders) whereby they stayed in power if the rich weren't forced to pay their taxes. The political elite have since lost all their power to the only party challenging them. Syriza have at promised to fight corruption and high level tax evasion by the very rich. Since you think corruption and poor tax collection is the root cause of Greece's problems, wouldn't you say that this is a good thing? I fail to see what else the Greek government can do, they have exhausted all their other choices. I repeat, they've slashed wages by 40%. Forty! They've slashed pensions by 50%. Imagine if your pension was cut in half! Unemployment is 25%, youth unemployment 50% and all the talented youths are leaving for sunnier climbs elsewhere. A brain drain. This is not any old recession in Greece, this is a great depression. And what you and others propose is that Greece should somehow punish its poor and working class even further? Is that really wise? I'm all for fiscal responsibility, I'm a Conservative, but one should also be compassionate and make sure that everyone pays their fair share. The democratically elected Greek government has been given no support from their creditors to actually fight these problems. Why is it that Germany flat out refuses to restructure any debt? It couldn't be that it would be too politically dangerous at home, could it? Or that their banks would revolt? They're not exactly whiter than white! You seem to support the right like you would a football team. It simply shouldn't be like that. Practical solutions to problems is what is needed. Slashed their pensions by 50% yet the Greek basic state pension is still 20% more than the UK ones. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 06 Jul 15 6.23pm

Quote We are goin up! at 06 Jul 2015 6.16pm