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Stirlingsays 10 Sep 15 12.36pm
Quote Kermit8 at 10 Sep 2015 12.04pm You have just also described analogy wise the fatal flaw in strongly capitalistic countries who have followed an economic model that just simply can't go on forever. We agree on both counts Kermit. Those who believe that population increases are an answer to the old age problem just aren't really thinking, all it does is make the fallout worse and disastrous when it comes.....and...... While I'm a mixture of right and left one of my more Red Tory aspects is a recognition that unfetted capitalism is fundamentally flawed. Contacts are still more important than ability or knowledge and elitism is still a scar disfiguring society. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Sep 15 12.36pm

Quote Kermit8 at 10 Sep 2015 12.04pm

You have just also described analogy wise the fatal flaw in strongly capitalistic countries who have followed an economic model that just simply can't go on forever.

We agree on both counts Kermit.

Those who believe that population increases are an answer to the old age problem just aren't really thinking, all it does is make the fallout worse and disastrous when it comes.....and......

While I'm a mixture of right and left one of my more Red Tory aspects is a recognition that unfetted capitalism is fundamentally flawed.

Contacts are still more important than ability or knowledge and elitism is still a scar disfiguring society.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Mapletree Croydon 10 Sep 15 12.42pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 10 Sep 2015 12.36pm Quote Kermit8 at 10 Sep 2015 12.04pm You have just also described analogy wise the fatal flaw in strongly capitalistic countries who have followed an economic model that just simply can't go on forever. We agree on both counts Kermit. Those who believe that population increases are an answer to the old age problem just aren't really thinking, all it does is make the fallout worse and disastrous when it comes.....and...... While I'm a mixture of right and left one of my more Red Tory aspects is a recognition that unfetted capitalism is fundamentally flawed. Contacts are still more important than ability or knowledge and elitism is still a scar disfiguring society. Crikey, you mean I shouldn't really be using my 'special handshake'?
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Mapletree

Croydon 10 Sep 15 12.42pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 10 Sep 2015 12.36pm

Quote Kermit8 at 10 Sep 2015 12.04pm

You have just also described analogy wise the fatal flaw in strongly capitalistic countries who have followed an economic model that just simply can't go on forever.

We agree on both counts Kermit.

Those who believe that population increases are an answer to the old age problem just aren't really thinking, all it does is make the fallout worse and disastrous when it comes.....and......

While I'm a mixture of right and left one of my more Red Tory aspects is a recognition that unfetted capitalism is fundamentally flawed.

Contacts are still more important than ability or knowledge and elitism is still a scar disfiguring society.

Crikey, you mean I shouldn't really be using my 'special handshake'?

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Stirlingsays 10 Sep 15 12.43pm
Quote crystal balls at 10 Sep 2015 11.51am It's entirely pragmatic; and totally thought through! Unfortunately, like some of the "head in the sand" tendency you do not seem to realise the urgency of the situation, Within the next 10-15 years the number of over 65 and under 20s in the UK will far outnumber the working population. If we do not have more people of working age paying taxes and keeping the economy running we will be faced with a bankrupt nation. This isn't something we can ignore, it will directly affect everyone, especially everyone who is now over 30. The situation will continue for a number of years (probably around 20 or so) until the demographics will probably turn around, due to the increasing birthrate in the last few years (assuming this continues). From the 50s through to the 80s we had a very large number of workers come to the UK from abroad. Some remain here, some have returned to Ireland, Australia, South Africa or the West Indies. The population in the UK has increased from around 52m in the late 50's to 66m now. In the same period the world population has increased from around 3bn to 6.8bn. It would be unreasonable to exclude the UK from any population increase, and the country has a far lower population density of inhabitable land than most other comparable countries, let alone places like Bangladesh, Hong Kong or Japan. And the Tories are supporters of business; they are largely pro-EU as this is seen by them as best for businesses. Sorry if you don't agree, but they will be campaigning for "in" at the referendum. If you had actually through it though you would have answered the problems that I raised. Instead you just repeated the actual logical flaw with the whole issue. The higher the population, the more and more 'young men', 'young women' you need supporting the population. It can't continue. By continuing to allow this increase all you are doing is making the massive collapse more disastrous. And England, especially the south has probably the highest people density in the EU. We are a smallish island and we are projected to end up with the highest population in Europe. Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Sep 2015 12.44pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Sep 15 12.43pm

Quote crystal balls at 10 Sep 2015 11.51am

It's entirely pragmatic; and totally thought through! Unfortunately, like some of the "head in the sand" tendency you do not seem to realise the urgency of the situation,

Within the next 10-15 years the number of over 65 and under 20s in the UK will far outnumber the working population. If we do not have more people of working age paying taxes and keeping the economy running we will be faced with a bankrupt nation. This isn't something we can ignore, it will directly affect everyone, especially everyone who is now over 30.

The situation will continue for a number of years (probably around 20 or so) until the demographics will probably turn around, due to the increasing birthrate in the last few years (assuming this continues).

From the 50s through to the 80s we had a very large number of workers come to the UK from abroad. Some remain here, some have returned to Ireland, Australia, South Africa or the West Indies.

The population in the UK has increased from around 52m in the late 50's to 66m now. In the same period the world population has increased from around 3bn to 6.8bn. It would be unreasonable to exclude the UK from any population increase, and the country has a far lower population density of inhabitable land than most other comparable countries, let alone places like Bangladesh, Hong Kong or Japan.

And the Tories are supporters of business; they are largely pro-EU as this is seen by them as best for businesses. Sorry if you don't agree, but they will be campaigning for "in" at the referendum.

If you had actually through it though you would have answered the problems that I raised.

Instead you just repeated the actual logical flaw with the whole issue.

The higher the population, the more and more 'young men', 'young women' you need supporting the population.

It can't continue.

By continuing to allow this increase all you are doing is making the massive collapse more disastrous.

And England, especially the south has probably the highest people density in the EU.

We are a smallish island and we are projected to end up with the highest population in Europe.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Sep 2015 12.44pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 10 Sep 15 12.47pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 10 Sep 2015 12.36pm Quote Kermit8 at 10 Sep 2015 12.04pm You have just also described analogy wise the fatal flaw in strongly capitalistic countries who have followed an economic model that just simply can't go on forever. We agree on both counts Kermit. Those who believe that population increases are an answer to the old age problem just aren't really thinking, all it does is make the fallout worse and disastrous when it comes.....and...... While I'm a mixture of right and left one of my more Red Tory aspects is a recognition that unfetted capitalism is fundamentally flawed. Contacts are still more important than ability or knowledge and elitism is still a scar disfiguring society. With the projected world population increases I feel it is inevitable that we will have here by the end of the century up to 100million. Rather than fighting that the best thing really would be the long term management and solution-based policy emanating from those in power. A Ministry maybe. Whilst the debating rages on the population flow chart won't suddenly stop its upward incline just because one side intellectually beats the other. The only other alternative would be to look inward, close the borders, and become some insular society paranoid of the outside world. And that's not going to happen. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 10 Sep 15 12.47pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 10 Sep 2015 12.36pm

Quote Kermit8 at 10 Sep 2015 12.04pm

You have just also described analogy wise the fatal flaw in strongly capitalistic countries who have followed an economic model that just simply can't go on forever.

We agree on both counts Kermit.

Those who believe that population increases are an answer to the old age problem just aren't really thinking, all it does is make the fallout worse and disastrous when it comes.....and......

While I'm a mixture of right and left one of my more Red Tory aspects is a recognition that unfetted capitalism is fundamentally flawed.

Contacts are still more important than ability or knowledge and elitism is still a scar disfiguring society.

With the projected world population increases I feel it is inevitable that we will have here by the end of the century up to 100million. Rather than fighting that the best thing really would be the long term management and solution-based policy emanating from those in power. A Ministry maybe.

Whilst the debating rages on the population flow chart won't suddenly stop its upward incline just because one side intellectually beats the other.

The only other alternative would be to look inward, close the borders, and become some insular society paranoid of the outside world. And that's not going to happen.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Mapletree Croydon 10 Sep 15 12.48pm
Quote Kermit8 at 10 Sep 2015 12.17pm Quote Mapletree at 10 Sep 2015 10.45am Blimey, apologies from both you and Matt. Like Matt said, we love you. But just to reinforce the point, Croydon is just as much about people that live in Purley, Coulsdon, Sanderstead and Selsdon as people that live in Upper Norwood, Bensham Manor, New Addington and Broad Green. It is beginning to look like the Fairfield ward is really up and coming judging by the new building. Try going to the White Bear (Fickleshole) or The Fox (Coulsdon Common). We don't have to wallow in the sh*t bits and I really don't recommend Broad Green at night. That's a part of living in Croydon, being street smart and choosing your lifestyle. And by the way, I have had some cracking times in Sheffield but I was always aware I didn't know the places to avoid and had to be cautious. Tbf Maple you are looking at it from a borough perspective which is broad and open minded. However, from mine and my friends who are Croydonians I would say we class actual Croydon - the media one and the one we grew up in and the one we mean when we say 'Croydon' as just being from Broad Green in the North to the old Red Deer towards Purley in the South and its borders and from Wandle by the flyover in the West to Addiscombe in the East. Beyond those borders you have areas which were very much identifiable by their individuality which was/is strong enough to be classed as places who have a Croydon link but they are not Croydon. I mean - 'the White Bear' - 'twas my drinking hole for a while but no-one really thought of it as a Croydon pub and I can't believe anyone would today 'cept for one....or maybe one Edited by Kermit8 (10 Sep 2015 12.20pm) Well at least I count as coming from Croydon then. But of course you are quite wrong. The majority of Croydonians don't live in those areas. You even write off New Addington, I guess that's wishful thinking. I guess Forestdale didn't exist in your time, which has stretched Croydon a bit nearer your old watering hole. I don't go there cos I'm urban innit.
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Mapletree

Croydon 10 Sep 15 12.48pm

Quote Kermit8 at 10 Sep 2015 12.17pm

Quote Mapletree at 10 Sep 2015 10.45am

Blimey, apologies from both you and Matt. Like Matt said, we love you.

But just to reinforce the point, Croydon is just as much about people that live in Purley, Coulsdon, Sanderstead and Selsdon as people that live in Upper Norwood, Bensham Manor, New Addington and Broad Green. It is beginning to look like the Fairfield ward is really up and coming judging by the new building.

Try going to the White Bear (Fickleshole) or The Fox (Coulsdon Common). We don't have to wallow in the sh*t bits and I really don't recommend Broad Green at night. That's a part of living in Croydon, being street smart and choosing your lifestyle.

And by the way, I have had some cracking times in Sheffield but I was always aware I didn't know the places to avoid and had to be cautious.

Tbf Maple you are looking at it from a borough perspective which is broad and open minded. However, from mine and my friends who are Croydonians I would say we class actual Croydon - the media one and the one we grew up in and the one we mean when we say 'Croydon' as just being from Broad Green in the North to the old Red Deer towards Purley in the South and its borders and from Wandle by the flyover in the West to Addiscombe in the East.

Beyond those borders you have areas which were very much identifiable by their individuality which was/is strong enough to be classed as places who have a Croydon link but they are not Croydon.

I mean - 'the White Bear' - 'twas my drinking hole for a while but no-one really thought of it as a Croydon pub and I can't believe anyone would today 'cept for one....or maybe one

Edited by Kermit8 (10 Sep 2015 12.20pm)

Well at least I count as coming from Croydon then. But of course you are quite wrong. The majority of Croydonians don't live in those areas. You even write off New Addington, I guess that's wishful thinking. I guess Forestdale didn't exist in your time, which has stretched Croydon a bit nearer your old watering hole. I don't go there cos I'm urban innit.

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Stuk Top half 10 Sep 15 12.54pm
Quote johnfirewall at 10 Sep 2015 12.34pm Mixed messages from Europe, even within the same country, from the same politicians with Merkel and others appearing so caring while on the other hand saying they're taking too many. I'm glad we've riled the Mayor of Calais again in taking refugees from camps in Syria rather than the ones who made it to France. Similarly disgusting mentality to those the other side of Europe who are either reinforcing their borders or shipping them all through to the next counry and undermines any good the French have done. Rather oddly France are taking them from Germany. What's the point? Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 10 Sep 15 12.54pm

Quote johnfirewall at 10 Sep 2015 12.34pm

Mixed messages from Europe, even within the same country, from the same politicians with Merkel and others appearing so caring while on the other hand saying they're taking too many.

I'm glad we've riled the Mayor of Calais again in taking refugees from camps in Syria rather than the ones who made it to France. Similarly disgusting mentality to those the other side of Europe who are either reinforcing their borders or shipping them all through to the next counry and undermines any good the French have done.

Rather oddly France are taking them from Germany. What's the point?

Optimistic as ever

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Sep 15 1.15pm
Quote Stuk at 10 Sep 2015 12.54pm Quote johnfirewall at 10 Sep 2015 12.34pm Mixed messages from Europe, even within the same country, from the same politicians with Merkel and others appearing so caring while on the other hand saying they're taking too many. I'm glad we've riled the Mayor of Calais again in taking refugees from camps in Syria rather than the ones who made it to France. Similarly disgusting mentality to those the other side of Europe who are either reinforcing their borders or shipping them all through to the next counry and undermines any good the French have done. Rather oddly France are taking them from Germany. What's the point? Makes a change from germany taking people out of france "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Sep 15 1.15pm

Quote Stuk at 10 Sep 2015 12.54pm

Quote johnfirewall at 10 Sep 2015 12.34pm

Mixed messages from Europe, even within the same country, from the same politicians with Merkel and others appearing so caring while on the other hand saying they're taking too many.

Rather oddly France are taking them from Germany. What's the point?

Makes a change from germany taking people out of france

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Sep 15 1.26pm
Economic / Job migration should only be limited to areas where specialists are unavailable as a interim solution (for example as shortage of NHS nurses would result in bring in foreign nationals to fill the gap (some maybe even permanently) in the time it takes to recruit and train sufficient nursing staff from the unemployed of the UK. Problem with the UK is that there is no willingness to actually address unemployment through positive incentives, only negative ones. We should be willing to move those willing to retrain and work, into areas where they can work, set a minimum wage that's linked to inflation to make working always more benefical than being unemployed and train people, rather than expect them to arrive with the 'right qualification' (except where necessary). No one should need a degree to join a 'blue chip firm'. After 15 years in IT, where the most common intake is 2.1 grads only, I've never really ever seen that 'level of qualification' ever be required. They'd have been better off with a three years city and guilds Apprenticeship - but of course that would cost the company and the state. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 Sep 15 1.26pm

Economic / Job migration should only be limited to areas where specialists are unavailable as a interim solution (for example as shortage of NHS nurses would result in bring in foreign nationals to fill the gap (some maybe even permanently) in the time it takes to recruit and train sufficient nursing staff from the unemployed of the UK.

Problem with the UK is that there is no willingness to actually address unemployment through positive incentives, only negative ones.

We should be willing to move those willing to retrain and work, into areas where they can work, set a minimum wage that's linked to inflation to make working always more benefical than being unemployed and train people, rather than expect them to arrive with the 'right qualification' (except where necessary).

No one should need a degree to join a 'blue chip firm'. After 15 years in IT, where the most common intake is 2.1 grads only, I've never really ever seen that 'level of qualification' ever be required. They'd have been better off with a three years city and guilds Apprenticeship - but of course that would cost the company and the state.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Ouzo Dan 10 Sep 15 2.01pm
Its quite interesting to see that Hungary,Czech Republic,Slovakia & Poland have rejected Germany's Migrant quota despite Merkel's veiled threat over the Schengen agreement. Russia are no doubt watching these events quite closely. Edited by Ouzo Dan (10 Sep 2015 2.02pm) Sex Panther 60% of the time it works every time
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Ouzo Dan 10 Sep 15 2.01pm

Its quite interesting to see that Hungary,Czech Republic,Slovakia & Poland have rejected Germany's Migrant quota despite Merkel's veiled threat over the Schengen agreement.

Russia are no doubt watching these events quite closely.

Edited by Ouzo Dan (10 Sep 2015 2.02pm)

Sex Panther 60% of the time it works every time

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Stuk Top half 10 Sep 15 2.14pm
Quote Ouzo Dan at 10 Sep 2015 2.01pm Its quite interesting to see that Hungary,Czech Republic,Slovakia & Poland have rejected Germany's Migrant quota despite Merkel's veiled threat over the Schengen agreement. Russia are no doubt watching these events quite closely. Edited by Ouzo Dan (10 Sep 2015 2.02pm) They're probably thinking f*** Schengen, we'll set up our own little V4 travel zone. A bit like ours with Ireland. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 10 Sep 15 2.14pm

Quote Ouzo Dan at 10 Sep 2015 2.01pm

Its quite interesting to see that Hungary,Czech Republic,Slovakia & Poland have rejected Germany's Migrant quota despite Merkel's veiled threat over the Schengen agreement.

Russia are no doubt watching these events quite closely.

Edited by Ouzo Dan (10 Sep 2015 2.02pm)

They're probably thinking f*** Schengen, we'll set up our own little V4 travel zone.

A bit like ours with Ireland.

Optimistic as ever

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johnfirewall 10 Sep 15 2.30pm
Quote Stuk at 10 Sep 2015 12.54pm Quote johnfirewall at 10 Sep 2015 12.34pm Mixed messages from Europe, even within the same country, from the same politicians with Merkel and others appearing so caring while on the other hand saying they're taking too many. I'm glad we've riled the Mayor of Calais again in taking refugees from camps in Syria rather than the ones who made it to France. Similarly disgusting mentality to those the other side of Europe who are either reinforcing their borders or shipping them all through to the next counry and undermines any good the French have done. Rather oddly France are taking them from Germany. What's the point? Those are the telling scenarios. Will those who wished to settle in Germany be happy in France instead? Presumably they're distributed around the country so they're not on her patch, until they get stuck there on the way to England. We have no way to establish whether these policies are effective. If for example, for every new refugee accepted by France there were additional percentage in a camp in Calais the statistics would be dismissed. Why the silly cow is talking about us taking directly from Syria rather than France taking from Germany I don't know, although being a Mayor of a pointless town it's probably safer to criticise a foreign policy rather than your own. Edited by johnfirewall (10 Sep 2015 2.40pm) Edited by johnfirewall (10 Sep 2015 2.41pm)
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johnfirewall

10 Sep 15 2.30pm

Quote Stuk at 10 Sep 2015 12.54pm

Quote johnfirewall at 10 Sep 2015 12.34pm

Mixed messages from Europe, even within the same country, from the same politicians with Merkel and others appearing so caring while on the other hand saying they're taking too many.

Rather oddly France are taking them from Germany. What's the point?

Those are the telling scenarios. Will those who wished to settle in Germany be happy in France instead?

Presumably they're distributed around the country so they're not on her patch, until they get stuck there on the way to England.

We have no way to establish whether these policies are effective. If for example, for every new refugee accepted by France there were additional percentage in a camp in Calais the statistics would be dismissed. Why the silly cow is talking about us taking directly from Syria rather than France taking from Germany I don't know, although being a Mayor of a pointless town it's probably safer to criticise a foreign policy rather than your own.

Edited by johnfirewall (10 Sep 2015 2.40pm)

Edited by johnfirewall (10 Sep 2015 2.41pm)

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Sep 15 2.31pm
I love the fact that countries that have historicaly had to pander to Germany are now giving them the two fingered salute. Brilliant "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Sep 15 2.31pm

I love the fact that countries that have historicaly had to pander to Germany are now giving them the two fingered salute.

Brilliant

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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