Hiroshima

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Aug 15 3.25pm
Quote ghosteagle at 06 Aug 2015 3.17pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 05 Aug 2015 10.33pm 70 years ago. Always thought it was a necessary evil but not so sure now. [Link] Then again the Japanese still refused to surrender and of course the atrocities they committed were absolutely horrific. Worryingly there is a significant movement within Japan trying to rewrite history. [Link] Considering that the japanese were trying to surrender before the bomb was even dropped i'd say it was pretty unnecessary. That some of the Japanese government were talking about surrender doesn't necessarily mean that they were intending to surrender. Even after Hiroshima, there was still discussion of surrender and continuation. Nagasaki pretty much cleared the argument up (although had the Japanese known the US only had maybe three more bombs, they might have held out). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Aug 15 3.25pm

Quote ghosteagle at 06 Aug 2015 3.17pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 05 Aug 2015 10.33pm

70 years ago. Always thought it was a necessary evil but not so sure now.

[Link]

Then again the Japanese still refused to surrender and of course the atrocities they committed were absolutely horrific.

Worryingly there is a significant movement within Japan trying to rewrite history.
[Link]

Considering that the japanese were trying to surrender before the bomb was even dropped i'd say it was pretty unnecessary.

That some of the Japanese government were talking about surrender doesn't necessarily mean that they were intending to surrender.

Even after Hiroshima, there was still discussion of surrender and continuation. Nagasaki pretty much cleared the argument up (although had the Japanese known the US only had maybe three more bombs, they might have held out).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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TheJudge 06 Aug 15 3.33pm
My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest. The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first. ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong.
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TheJudge

06 Aug 15 3.33pm

My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest.
The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first.
ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong.

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 06 Aug 15 3.34pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 3.25pm Quote ghosteagle at 06 Aug 2015 3.17pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 05 Aug 2015 10.33pm 70 years ago. Always thought it was a necessary evil but not so sure now. [Link] Then again the Japanese still refused to surrender and of course the atrocities they committed were absolutely horrific. Worryingly there is a significant movement within Japan trying to rewrite history. [Link] Considering that the japanese were trying to surrender before the bomb was even dropped i'd say it was pretty unnecessary. That some of the Japanese government were talking about surrender doesn't necessarily mean that they were intending to surrender. Even after Hiroshima, there was still discussion of surrender and continuation. Nagasaki pretty much cleared the argument up (although had the Japanese known the US only had maybe three more bombs, they might have held out). I don't think they even had one more, let alone three. Anyway, it's pointless trying to apply present day attitudes and moralise about it so long after the event. Point is, it shortened a war which the Japanese, a particularly nasty bunch of cnts, had no hesitation in starting. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham*
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 06 Aug 15 3.34pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 3.25pm

Quote ghosteagle at 06 Aug 2015 3.17pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 05 Aug 2015 10.33pm

70 years ago. Always thought it was a necessary evil but not so sure now.

[Link]

Then again the Japanese still refused to surrender and of course the atrocities they committed were absolutely horrific.

Worryingly there is a significant movement within Japan trying to rewrite history.
[Link]

Considering that the japanese were trying to surrender before the bomb was even dropped i'd say it was pretty unnecessary.

That some of the Japanese government were talking about surrender doesn't necessarily mean that they were intending to surrender.

I don't think they even had one more, let alone three.

Anyway, it's pointless trying to apply present day attitudes and moralise about it so long after the event. Point is, it shortened a war which the Japanese, a particularly nasty bunch of c*nts, had no hesitation in starting.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 06 Aug 15 3.35pm
Quote Cucking Funt at 06 Aug 2015 3.20pm Quote ghosteagle at 06 Aug 2015 3.17pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 05 Aug 2015 10.33pm 70 years ago. Always thought it was a necessary evil but not so sure now. [Link] Then again the Japanese still refused to surrender and of course the atrocities they committed were absolutely horrific. Worryingly there is a significant movement within Japan trying to rewrite history. [Link] Considering that the japanese were trying to surrender before the bomb was even dropped i'd say it was pretty unnecessary. Evidence for that, please. I found this debunking the claim, there are others but I can't get on to most links that come up whilst at work [Link] I have no idea of the veracity of this site though the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 06 Aug 15 3.35pm

Quote Cucking Funt at 06 Aug 2015 3.20pm

Quote ghosteagle at 06 Aug 2015 3.17pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 05 Aug 2015 10.33pm

70 years ago. Always thought it was a necessary evil but not so sure now.

[Link]

Then again the Japanese still refused to surrender and of course the atrocities they committed were absolutely horrific.

Worryingly there is a significant movement within Japan trying to rewrite history.
[Link]

Considering that the japanese were trying to surrender before the bomb was even dropped i'd say it was pretty unnecessary.

Evidence for that, please.

I found this debunking the claim, there are others but I can't get on to most links that come up whilst at work

[Link]

I have no idea of the veracity of this site though

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 06 Aug 15 3.36pm
Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest. The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first. ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong. They already had with Germany defeated their eyes turned east the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 06 Aug 15 3.36pm

Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm

My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest.
The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first.
ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong.

They already had with Germany defeated their eyes turned east

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 06 Aug 15 3.37pm
Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest. The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first. ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong. In a nutshell. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 06 Aug 15 3.37pm

Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm

In a nutshell.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Aug 15 3.44pm
Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest. The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first. ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong. Well arguably we were weak and cowardly, as we dropped the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As a result, the US probably avoided at least 100,000 casualties (probably closer to at least 500,000+). The Japanese would of course have said they fought honorably and bravely, rather than ruthless and cruelly. But that's all irrelevant when you can vaporize an entire city (and to them it would have seemed 'almost at will'). Probably less than 100 people knew what happened that day, and none of them were in Japan. Edited by jamiemartin721 (06 Aug 2015 3.47pm) "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Aug 15 3.44pm

Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm

Well arguably we were weak and cowardly, as we dropped the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As a result, the US probably avoided at least 100,000 casualties (probably closer to at least 500,000+).

The Japanese would of course have said they fought honorably and bravely, rather than ruthless and cruelly. But that's all irrelevant when you can vaporize an entire city (and to them it would have seemed 'almost at will').

Probably less than 100 people knew what happened that day, and none of them were in Japan.

Edited by jamiemartin721 (06 Aug 2015 3.47pm)

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Aug 15 3.47pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 06 Aug 2015 3.36pm Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest. The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first. ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong. They already had with Germany defeated their eyes turned east With some success. I suspect the Russians wouldn't really have balked at the idea of losing a million men in the invasion of Japan either. Compared to the Eastern front, those were fairly light casualties compared to Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Aug 15 3.47pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 06 Aug 2015 3.36pm

Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm

My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest.
The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first.
ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong.

They already had with Germany defeated their eyes turned east

With some success. I suspect the Russians wouldn't really have balked at the idea of losing a million men in the invasion of Japan either. Compared to the Eastern front, those were fairly light casualties compared to Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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TheJudge 06 Aug 15 3.50pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 3.44pm Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm My position is this. To see human suffering on that scale is terrible but it has to be put in contest. The US was attacked without reason or warning and defended itself. Ultimately Japan should have surrendered long before it did and certainly before the second Atomic bomb was dropped. The Americans were met with an enemy who put honour and victory before life and suffered many casualties on the ground and at sea through suicide attacks. They put American lives first. ALso the Russians cold not be trusted and might have moved into Asia. As much the use of the bomb appalls me, it has to be seen in that context and history cannot be revised just because it suits current political correctness. The Japanese were ruthless cruel and fanatical and thought we were weak and cowardly. They were wrong. Well arguably we were weak and cowardly, as we dropped the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As a result, the US probably avoided at least 100,000 casualties (probably closer to at least 500,000+). The Japanese would of course have said they fought honorably and bravely, rather than ruthless and cruelly. But that's all irrelevant when you can vaporize an entire city (and to them it would have seemed 'almost at will'). Probably less than 100 people knew what happened that day, and none of them were in Japan. Edited by jamiemartin721 (06 Aug 2015 3.47pm) How easy it is to adopt these attitudes when you are on the winning side. I wonder if you or Ghostweazel would have hesitated to press the button if the Japanese had been at your gate.
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TheJudge

06 Aug 15 3.50pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 3.44pm

Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.33pm

Probably less than 100 people knew what happened that day, and none of them were in Japan.

Edited by jamiemartin721 (06 Aug 2015 3.47pm)

How easy it is to adopt these attitudes when you are on the winning side.
I wonder if you or Ghostweazel would have hesitated to press the button if the Japanese had been at your gate.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Aug 15 3.56pm
Quote Cucking Funt at 06 Aug 2015 3.34pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 3.25pm Quote ghosteagle at 06 Aug 2015 3.17pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 05 Aug 2015 10.33pm 70 years ago. Always thought it was a necessary evil but not so sure now. [Link] Then again the Japanese still refused to surrender and of course the atrocities they committed were absolutely horrific. Worryingly there is a significant movement within Japan trying to rewrite history. [Link] Considering that the japanese were trying to surrender before the bomb was even dropped i'd say it was pretty unnecessary. That some of the Japanese government were talking about surrender doesn't necessarily mean that they were intending to surrender. Even after Hiroshima, there was still discussion of surrender and continuation. Nagasaki pretty much cleared the argument up (although had the Japanese known the US only had maybe three more bombs, they might have held out). I don't think they even had one more, let alone three. Anyway, it's pointless trying to apply present day attitudes and moralise about it so long after the event. Point is, it shortened a war which the Japanese, a particularly nasty bunch of c*nts, had no hesitation in starting. They had one more ready for production, that could have been deployed on the 19th August, and enough material to produce six more by the end of October. Its quite likely that the act of deploying the bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki ultimately fed into the detent of the cold war. Had those two events not occurred, the worlds knowledge of the true horror of nuclear weapons would have been theoretical, rather than practical. The impact of that on the cold war was probably as much a factor in keeping the peace as anything else (even after the Soviets built and tested their own weapons). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Aug 15 3.56pm

Quote Cucking Funt at 06 Aug 2015 3.34pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 3.25pm

Quote ghosteagle at 06 Aug 2015 3.17pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 05 Aug 2015 10.33pm

70 years ago. Always thought it was a necessary evil but not so sure now.

[Link]

Then again the Japanese still refused to surrender and of course the atrocities they committed were absolutely horrific.

Worryingly there is a significant movement within Japan trying to rewrite history.
[Link]

Considering that the japanese were trying to surrender before the bomb was even dropped i'd say it was pretty unnecessary.

That some of the Japanese government were talking about surrender doesn't necessarily mean that they were intending to surrender.

I don't think they even had one more, let alone three.

They had one more ready for production, that could have been deployed on the 19th August, and enough material to produce six more by the end of October.

Its quite likely that the act of deploying the bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki ultimately fed into the detent of the cold war. Had those two events not occurred, the worlds knowledge of the true horror of nuclear weapons would have been theoretical, rather than practical. The impact of that on the cold war was probably as much a factor in keeping the peace as anything else (even after the Soviets built and tested their own weapons).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Aug 15 4.07pm
Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.50pm I wonder if you or Ghostweazel would have hesitated to press the button if the Japanese had been at your gate. I'd probably have made the same decision as Trueman - I don't disagree with the decision. I probably would have selected Hiroshima as well (as it had largely been untouched by bombing, was an idea test target and contained about 20,000 troops). I like to think I'd have struggled to live with that decision for the rest of my life. I'd like to think I'd have waited more than three days to drop the bomb on Nagasaki. It would be a mistake to assume the US weren't interested in 'researching the effectiveness of their new super weapon'. Doesn't make it somehow right or good, but a regrettable necessity. I also think, if the Germans or Japanese had used such a weapon, and lost the war, then it would have been a war crime. Also the Japanese were hardly at the American gate. It also was six days after Nagasaki that the Japanese surrendered, four days before the US could deploy a third bomb (Nagasaki, a port, was a target more of convenience, as Kyoto was obscured by cloud formations, so the target was switched). Toyko was dismissed as a target due to having been hit heavily by bombers throughout the war, and lacked much in the way of suitable targets. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Aug 15 4.07pm

Quote TheJudge at 06 Aug 2015 3.50pm

I wonder if you or Ghostweazel would have hesitated to press the button if the Japanese had been at your gate.

I'd probably have made the same decision as Trueman - I don't disagree with the decision. I probably would have selected Hiroshima as well (as it had largely been untouched by bombing, was an idea test target and contained about 20,000 troops). I like to think I'd have struggled to live with that decision for the rest of my life. I'd like to think I'd have waited more than three days to drop the bomb on Nagasaki.

It would be a mistake to assume the US weren't interested in 'researching the effectiveness of their new super weapon'.

Doesn't make it somehow right or good, but a regrettable necessity. I also think, if the Germans or Japanese had used such a weapon, and lost the war, then it would have been a war crime.

Also the Japanese were hardly at the American gate. It also was six days after Nagasaki that the Japanese surrendered, four days before the US could deploy a third bomb (Nagasaki, a port, was a target more of convenience, as Kyoto was obscured by cloud formations, so the target was switched).

Toyko was dismissed as a target due to having been hit heavily by bombers throughout the war, and lacked much in the way of suitable targets.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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TheJudge 06 Aug 15 5.49pm
But what point are you trying to make ? It was War. The Japanese were the aggressors and they seriously underestimated America. The Americans could have won that war at a canter if they had not committed most of their troops and resources to Europe. The Japanese would have fought to the last man with their government happy to sacrifice huge numbers in a lost cause. Who is to say if the bombs actually saved net lives ? These retrospective questions are pointless. Let's ask if Britain would have been better of surrendering to the Germans. I bet I could present a rational argument, but what for ? What is done is done and the best thing to do is learn from history, not rewrite it over and over. The victors write history and that is the way it has always been.
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TheJudge

06 Aug 15 5.49pm

But what point are you trying to make ?

It was War. The Japanese were the aggressors and they seriously underestimated America. The Americans could have won that war at a canter if they had not committed most of their troops and resources to Europe. The Japanese would have fought to the last man with their government happy to sacrifice huge numbers in a lost cause.
Who is to say if the bombs actually saved net lives ?

These retrospective questions are pointless.
Let's ask if Britain would have been better of surrendering to the Germans. I bet I could present a rational argument, but what for ? What is done is done and the best thing to do is learn from history, not rewrite it over and over. The victors write history and that is the way it has always been.

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