Cameron does a Blair

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 09 Sep 15 8.04am
Quote jcreedy at 09 Sep 2015 12.34am Quote elgrande at 08 Sep 2015 5.59pm Quote nickgusset at 08 Sep 2015 5.54pm Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 5.29pm This is not Bush/Blair and Iraq. This is about national security and if it prevents ANY terror atrocities anywhere in the world then long may it continue. If you want to gun down defenceless people sitting on a beach, or hack to death a young man like Lee Rigby in the most horrific way imaginable, or indeed subscribe to those views, in my book you deserve all that is coming your way and stuff the niceties or legality of it. Gunning down innocent people on a beach? Isn't that also an Israeli tactic? Should we send in drones? Israel is not a threat to our national security....IS are They're a f***ing evil threat to Gaza and its occupants. As long as they're not harming us though, we'll just let them carry on with illegally grabbing land, imposing blockades, and murdering children. Where as HAMAS are a lovley bunch of people. "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 09 Sep 15 8.04am

Quote jcreedy at 09 Sep 2015 12.34am

Quote elgrande at 08 Sep 2015 5.59pm

Quote nickgusset at 08 Sep 2015 5.54pm

Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 5.29pm

This is not Bush/Blair and Iraq. This is about national security and if it prevents ANY terror atrocities anywhere in the world then long may it continue. If you want to gun down defenceless people sitting on a beach, or hack to death a young man like Lee Rigby in the most horrific way imaginable, or indeed subscribe to those views, in my book you deserve all that is coming your way and stuff the niceties or legality of it.

Gunning down innocent people on a beach? Isn't that also an Israeli tactic? Should we send in drones?

Israel is not a threat to our national security....IS are

They're a f***ing evil threat to Gaza and its occupants. As long as they're not harming us though, we'll just let them carry on with illegally grabbing land, imposing blockades, and murdering children.

Where as HAMAS are a lovley bunch of people.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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sickboy Deal or Croydon 09 Sep 15 8.28am
Quote nickgusset at 08 Sep 2015 8.31pm Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 8.15pm I understand that we are all different and are all entitled to our opinions but reading the liberal/left apologist views of some people makes me despair. then again IS may well respond to us asking them nicely to stop for a bit so we can have a chat about a solution. I would also like to know why this is being compared to the israelies or the falklands conflict. IS, is a very specific problem and a "gloves off" pro active policy seems to be the only option that will work. please dont start about human rights or due process as these people are not worthy of either. Who on this thread has been an apologist for the 'so called' islamic state? Name and shame them with evidence of their support. We could get them arrested for treason and everything I reckon. Never said anybody was an IS apologist.
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sickboy

Deal or Croydon 09 Sep 15 8.28am

Quote nickgusset at 08 Sep 2015 8.31pm

Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 8.15pm

I understand that we are all different and are all entitled to our opinions but reading the liberal/left apologist views of some people makes me despair. then again IS may well respond to us asking them nicely to stop for a bit so we can have a chat about a solution. I would also like to know why this is being compared to the israelies or the falklands conflict. IS, is a very specific problem and a "gloves off" pro active policy seems to be the only option that will work. please dont start about human rights or due process as these people are not worthy of either.

Who on this thread has been an apologist for the 'so called' islamic state? Name and shame them with evidence of their support. We could get them arrested for treason and everything I reckon.

Never said anybody was an IS apologist.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 09 Sep 15 10.16am
Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 5.29pm This is not Bush/Blair and Iraq. This is about national security and if it prevents ANY terror atrocities anywhere in the world then long may it continue. If you want to gun down defenceless people sitting on a beach, or hack to death a young man like Lee Rigby in the most horrific way imaginable, or indeed subscribe to those views, in my book you deserve all that is coming your way and stuff the niceties or legality of it. Yes, but if you don't stick to the legality of it, you pretty much end up becoming the people bombing innocent people at a wedding or the wrong guy (because he has the same name). As far as I'm concerned taking out the enemy is legitimate use of force, but when you're operating in areas of 'questionable' actions, you need oversight and independent evaluation to keep you from drift. Look at the Israeli response to Black September. They went from killing those directly involved and responsible, to ending up killing people who were entirely innocent or teniously linked to terrorism, because of 'mission creep'. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 09 Sep 15 10.16am

Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 5.29pm

Yes, but if you don't stick to the legality of it, you pretty much end up becoming the people bombing innocent people at a wedding or the wrong guy (because he has the same name).

As far as I'm concerned taking out the enemy is legitimate use of force, but when you're operating in areas of 'questionable' actions, you need oversight and independent evaluation to keep you from drift.

Look at the Israeli response to Black September. They went from killing those directly involved and responsible, to ending up killing people who were entirely innocent or teniously linked to terrorism, because of 'mission creep'.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 09 Sep 15 10.22am
Quote pefwin at 08 Sep 2015 8.10pm Quote oldcodger at 08 Sep 2015 7.59pm A look at the legal argument case in favour of the action taken [Link] Quite interesting, he seems to argue on the crux “Principles relevant to the scope of a state’s right of self-defense against an imminent or actual armed attack by nonstate actors” Yes, but determining the states right to self defense does also require proving that you acted in self defense and that it was reasonable to assume an imminent or actual attack. Before the first tank crossed the Iraq border the Prime Minister and Intelligence services were telling us that 'Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction and was capable of hitting the UK and deploying them within 45 minutes of an order'. Along with the old 'buying uranium etc'. All of which were thoroughly unfounded and based on very selective choices of intelligence. In recent decades intelligence has become about 'justifying' what you did, and covering your arse, and that gets a lot of innocent people killed. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 09 Sep 15 10.22am

Quote pefwin at 08 Sep 2015 8.10pm

Quote oldcodger at 08 Sep 2015 7.59pm

A look at the legal argument case in favour of the action taken [Link]

Quite interesting, he seems to argue on the crux “Principles relevant to the scope of a state’s right of self-defense against an imminent or actual armed attack by nonstate actors”

Yes, but determining the states right to self defense does also require proving that you acted in self defense and that it was reasonable to assume an imminent or actual attack.

Before the first tank crossed the Iraq border the Prime Minister and Intelligence services were telling us that 'Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction and was capable of hitting the UK and deploying them within 45 minutes of an order'. Along with the old 'buying uranium etc'. All of which were thoroughly unfounded and based on very selective choices of intelligence.

In recent decades intelligence has become about 'justifying' what you did, and covering your arse, and that gets a lot of innocent people killed.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 09 Sep 15 10.25am
Quote dannyh at 09 Sep 2015 8.04am Quote jcreedy at 09 Sep 2015 12.34am Quote elgrande at 08 Sep 2015 5.59pm Quote nickgusset at 08 Sep 2015 5.54pm Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 5.29pm This is not Bush/Blair and Iraq. This is about national security and if it prevents ANY terror atrocities anywhere in the world then long may it continue. If you want to gun down defenceless people sitting on a beach, or hack to death a young man like Lee Rigby in the most horrific way imaginable, or indeed subscribe to those views, in my book you deserve all that is coming your way and stuff the niceties or legality of it. Gunning down innocent people on a beach? Isn't that also an Israeli tactic? Should we send in drones? Israel is not a threat to our national security....IS are They're a f*ing evil threat to Gaza and its occupants. As long as they're not harming us though, we'll just let them carry on with illegally grabbing land, imposing blockades, and murdering children. Where as HAMAS are a lovley bunch of people. Either way the problem is that both sides have essentially backed themselves into a corner by killing civilians indiscriminately. A result of both sides acting out an escalating conflict of just killing and fking over the people in the next country, hasn't actually done anything except make the problem a lot worse. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 09 Sep 15 10.25am

Quote dannyh at 09 Sep 2015 8.04am

Quote jcreedy at 09 Sep 2015 12.34am

Quote elgrande at 08 Sep 2015 5.59pm

Quote nickgusset at 08 Sep 2015 5.54pm

Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 5.29pm

Gunning down innocent people on a beach? Isn't that also an Israeli tactic? Should we send in drones?

Israel is not a threat to our national security....IS are

Where as HAMAS are a lovley bunch of people.

Either way the problem is that both sides have essentially backed themselves into a corner by killing civilians indiscriminately. A result of both sides acting out an escalating conflict of just killing and f**king over the people in the next country, hasn't actually done anything except make the problem a lot worse.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 09 Sep 15 10.32am
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Sep 2015 9.27pm I do wonder whether the WWII would turn out the same if fought with the same media attention and social media outlets that exist now. People have a rose tinted view of the war but a lot of stuff went on that nowadays would have the left (I say that because it is primarily the left) in uproar. Propaganda, misinformation, internment, never mind the resistance and some of the dodgy actions that took place. War is an awful people die, innocent people, evil people, misguided etc. it's what happens. Computer games and Rambo seems to have made people think you can just take out the bad guys nice and cleanly. Terrorists by any other name, the UN specifically identifies the right of a nation or recognized peoples, to resist occupation that is not by order of the security council. Furthermore, the UN laws stipulate that a occupying nation has to treat an occupied peoples as if they were their own people, to the best of their ability. Quite a few groups labeled terrorists, aren't, its just that there is no shared or definition of terrorism (Until the 90s, the US state department only regarded attacks in Israel or abroad as being terrorist actions - even when groups labeled terrorists were involved). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 09 Sep 15 10.32am

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Sep 2015 9.27pm

I do wonder whether the WWII would turn out the same if fought with the same media attention and social media outlets that exist now.

People have a rose tinted view of the war but a lot of stuff went on that nowadays would have the left (I say that because it is primarily the left) in uproar. Propaganda, misinformation, internment, never mind the resistance and some of the dodgy actions that took place.

War is an awful people die, innocent people, evil people, misguided etc. it's what happens. Computer games and Rambo seems to have made people think you can just take out the bad guys nice and cleanly.

Terrorists by any other name, the UN specifically identifies the right of a nation or recognized peoples, to resist occupation that is not by order of the security council.

Furthermore, the UN laws stipulate that a occupying nation has to treat an occupied peoples as if they were their own people, to the best of their ability.

Quite a few groups labeled terrorists, aren't, its just that there is no shared or definition of terrorism (Until the 90s, the US state department only regarded attacks in Israel or abroad as being terrorist actions - even when groups labeled terrorists were involved).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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elgrande bedford 09 Sep 15 1.41pm
Quote jcreedy at 09 Sep 2015 12.34am Quote elgrande at 08 Sep 2015 5.59pm Quote nickgusset at 08 Sep 2015 5.54pm Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 5.29pm This is not Bush/Blair and Iraq. This is about national security and if it prevents ANY terror atrocities anywhere in the world then long may it continue. If you want to gun down defenceless people sitting on a beach, or hack to death a young man like Lee Rigby in the most horrific way imaginable, or indeed subscribe to those views, in my book you deserve all that is coming your way and stuff the niceties or legality of it. Gunning down innocent people on a beach? Isn't that also an Israeli tactic? Should we send in drones? Israel is not a threat to our national security....IS are They're a f***ing evil threat to Gaza and its occupants. As long as they're not harming us though, we'll just let them carry on with illegally grabbing land, imposing blockades, and murdering children. What has that got to do with a thread about IS....Sure there must be a thread on here somewhere about that. always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.
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elgrande

bedford 09 Sep 15 1.41pm

Quote jcreedy at 09 Sep 2015 12.34am

Quote elgrande at 08 Sep 2015 5.59pm

Quote nickgusset at 08 Sep 2015 5.54pm

Quote sickboy at 08 Sep 2015 5.29pm

Gunning down innocent people on a beach? Isn't that also an Israeli tactic? Should we send in drones?

Israel is not a threat to our national security....IS are

What has that got to do with a thread about IS....Sure there must be a thread on here somewhere about that.

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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dynamicdick Dormansland 10 Sep 15 12.36am
Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 7.36pm Then take it back to Parliament for a vote before you do it.What's the problem about proceeding that way? The element of surprise! Bring back Brolin
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dynamicdick

Dormansland 10 Sep 15 12.36am

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 7.36pm

Then take it back to Parliament for a vote before you do it.What's the problem about proceeding that way?

The element of surprise!

Bring back Brolin

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Sep 15 7.47am
[Link] Finally Meanwhile erstwhile hand ringer Corbyn wants people to be able to "opt out" of paying taxes for the military. What a prize cund. Edited by dannyh (10 Sep 2015 7.48am) "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Sep 15 7.47am

[Link]

Finally

Meanwhile erstwhile hand ringer Corbyn wants people to be able to "opt out" of paying taxes for the military.

What a prize cund.

Edited by dannyh (10 Sep 2015 7.48am)

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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npn Crowborough 10 Sep 15 8.51am
Quote dannyh at 10 Sep 2015 7.47am [Link] Finally Meanwhile erstwhile hand ringer Corbyn wants people to be able to "opt out" of paying taxes for the military. What a prize cund. Edited by dannyh (10 Sep 2015 7.48am) Cool - can I opt out of paying taxes for the feckless too?
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npn

Crowborough 10 Sep 15 8.51am

Quote dannyh at 10 Sep 2015 7.47am

[Link]

Finally

Meanwhile erstwhile hand ringer Corbyn wants people to be able to "opt out" of paying taxes for the military.

What a prize cund.

Edited by dannyh (10 Sep 2015 7.48am)

Cool - can I opt out of paying taxes for the feckless too?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Sep 15 9.48am
Quote dannyh at 10 Sep 2015 7.47am [Link] Finally Meanwhile erstwhile hand ringer Corbyn wants people to be able to "opt out" of paying taxes for the military. What a prize cund. Edited by dannyh (10 Sep 2015 7.48am) He's got it wrong if you ask me, anyone not of officer rank, should be exempt from paying income tax entirely upto the 40% threshold (if you ask me), whilst in full service. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 Sep 15 9.48am

Quote dannyh at 10 Sep 2015 7.47am

[Link]

Finally

Meanwhile erstwhile hand ringer Corbyn wants people to be able to "opt out" of paying taxes for the military.

What a prize cund.

Edited by dannyh (10 Sep 2015 7.48am)

He's got it wrong if you ask me, anyone not of officer rank, should be exempt from paying income tax entirely upto the 40% threshold (if you ask me), whilst in full service.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Sep 15 9.49am
Quote npn at 10 Sep 2015 8.51am Quote dannyh at 10 Sep 2015 7.47am [Link] Finally Meanwhile erstwhile hand ringer Corbyn wants people to be able to "opt out" of paying taxes for the military. What a prize cund. Edited by dannyh (10 Sep 2015 7.48am) Cool - can I opt out of paying taxes for the feckless too? I think that's called voting conservative... "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 Sep 15 9.49am

Quote npn at 10 Sep 2015 8.51am

Quote dannyh at 10 Sep 2015 7.47am

[Link]

Finally

Meanwhile erstwhile hand ringer Corbyn wants people to be able to "opt out" of paying taxes for the military.

What a prize cund.

Edited by dannyh (10 Sep 2015 7.48am)

Cool - can I opt out of paying taxes for the feckless too?

I think that's called voting conservative...