EU Referendum Thread
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 crystal balls  The Garden of Earthly Delights 11 Oct 15 10.06pm |
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Quote Catfish at 11 Oct 2015 9.12pm
Like many people I am in a quandary where a large part of me says lets get out. It is made more difficult by the fact that there are people whose views I respect on both sides of the debate. Essentially, it is rather like the Scottish referendum were you have to decide whether to take a leap into the unknown or stick within the familiar system that you don't like and try to change it. Q. Will we better off? No one knows Unpopular and unromantic view, but I think I prefer the known to the unknown. Several nails hit firmly on the head! Particularly the one about re-joining. Countries like Norway and Iceland who are outside the EU are very, very different to the UK, both economically and in population size. I'd rather we had some say in forming EU regulations, which would affect us in or out, rather than let the others make the rules and have to dance to their tune.
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| stateside Norfolk 11 Oct 15 10.13pm |
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Micky Flanagan should lead the Out Out campaine. Deffently we should all vote OUT
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| davenotamonkey 11 Oct 15 10.15pm |
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Quote Catfish at 11 Oct 2015 9.12pm
Like many people I am in a quandary where a large part of me says lets get out. It is made more difficult by the fact that there are people whose views I respect on both sides of the debate. Essentially, it is rather like the Scottish referendum were you have to decide whether to take a leap into the unknown or stick within the familiar system that you don't like and try to change it. Q. Will we better off? No one knows Unpopular and unromantic view, but I think I prefer the known to the unknown.
There's a shocking level of scaremongery going on from the "IN" campaign. I for one, welcome the swarm of locusts and the Thames turning red.
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| davenotamonkey 11 Oct 15 10.18pm |
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Quote crystal balls at 11 Oct 2015 10.06pm
Quote Catfish at 11 Oct 2015 9.12pm
Like many people I am in a quandary where a large part of me says lets get out. It is made more difficult by the fact that there are people whose views I respect on both sides of the debate. Essentially, it is rather like the Scottish referendum were you have to decide whether to take a leap into the unknown or stick within the familiar system that you don't like and try to change it. Q. Will we better off? No one knows Unpopular and unromantic view, but I think I prefer the known to the unknown. Several nails hit firmly on the head! Particularly the one about re-joining. Countries like Norway and Iceland who are outside the EU are very, very different to the UK, both economically and in population size. I'd rather we had some say in forming EU regulations, which would affect us in or out, rather than let the others make the rules and have to dance to their tune.
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| davenotamonkey 11 Oct 15 10.24pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 9.58pm
Quote Sg Bilko at 11 Oct 2015 7.35pm
I think the EU should not wait for the vote, just kick erm out, complete waste of time and space. While their at it as they don't want to be part of the Europe, boot them out of UEFA also.
The main money comes from Germany, France and us. Only a moron does nothing to stop losing a major client.
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| oldcodger 11 Oct 15 10.33pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 9.47pm
Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 6.27pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 5.55pm
Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 5.20pm
I would say that the IN vote is edging it, but I don't think you can gauge anything by the number of UKIP voters because many millions of people who want out of the EU didn't or wouldn't vote for them for a multitude of reasons.
I was replying to Kermit's comment about how he didn't think the OUT campaign could win, partially based on the number of votes UKIP got. I said that's a bad measure as many millions of people in favour of leaving the UK won't have voted UKIP. I'm not exactly sure what part of this you disagree with.
Really? That's a bit like saying that those who voted Tory want to stay in the EU because they didn't vote Ukip. It's blindingly obvious that a large percentage of Tory voters are anti EU......They don't vote Ukip because they don't want to let Labour in and through party loyalty. If you add say....thirty percent of the Tory election vote (out of thirty eight) to Ukip's vote and a few percent from Labour's......I'd say that the projection is very interesting indeed.
I myself am stating that the anti EU crowd cannot solely be measured by who has voted for UKIP. Again, I'm not sure what you're reading.
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| crystal balls The Garden of Earthly Delights 11 Oct 15 11.00pm |
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Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Oct 2015 10.18pm
Quote crystal balls at 11 Oct 2015 10.06pm
Quote Catfish at 11 Oct 2015 9.12pm
Like many people I am in a quandary where a large part of me says lets get out. It is made more difficult by the fact that there are people whose views I respect on both sides of the debate. Essentially, it is rather like the Scottish referendum were you have to decide whether to take a leap into the unknown or stick within the familiar system that you don't like and try to change it. Q. Will we better off? No one knows Unpopular and unromantic view, but I think I prefer the known to the unknown. Several nails hit firmly on the head! Particularly the one about re-joining. Countries like Norway and Iceland who are outside the EU are very, very different to the UK, both economically and in population size. I'd rather we had some say in forming EU regulations, which would affect us in or out, rather than let the others make the rules and have to dance to their tune. Correction; a large fraction of these rules have been agreed by the members of the EU following debate by ALL members (including the UK). The EU is not a separate entity, but a grouping of all member states. Sometimes things go the UK's way in the structure of rulings, sometimes they don't. In the same fashion, UK internal rulings often benefit some areas of the country over others. We used to be the world's largest economy at one point; we were for many years the second, now we are the sixth, and this trend of diminishing may well continue. Being part of the largest economic block in the world we pool our international influence with the whole EU. We no longer have an empire, alone we are a small island with some special qualities.I feel that our position is best served within an economic alliance, retaining what makes the UK special, but using the same economies of scale which has been so successful in the USA.
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| Stirlingsays 11 Oct 15 11.02pm |
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Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 10.33pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 9.47pm
Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 6.27pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 5.55pm
Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 5.20pm
I would say that the IN vote is edging it, but I don't think you can gauge anything by the number of UKIP voters because many millions of people who want out of the EU didn't or wouldn't vote for them for a multitude of reasons.
I was replying to Kermit's comment about how he didn't think the OUT campaign could win, partially based on the number of votes UKIP got. I said that's a bad measure as many millions of people in favour of leaving the UK won't have voted UKIP. I'm not exactly sure what part of this you disagree with.
Really? That's a bit like saying that those who voted Tory want to stay in the EU because they didn't vote Ukip. It's blindingly obvious that a large percentage of Tory voters are anti EU......They don't vote Ukip because they don't want to let Labour in and through party loyalty. If you add say....thirty percent of the Tory election vote (out of thirty eight) to Ukip's vote and a few percent from Labour's......I'd say that the projection is very interesting indeed.
I myself am stating that the anti EU crowd cannot solely be measured by who has voted for UKIP. Again, I'm not sure what you're reading.
Nope you're right, my mistake.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 11 Oct 15 11.05pm |
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Quote crystal balls at 11 Oct 2015 11.00pm
Correction; a large fraction of these rules have been agreed by the members of the EU following debate by ALL members (including the UK). The EU is not a separate entity, but a grouping of all member states. Sometimes things go the UK's way in the structure of rulings, sometimes they don't. In the same fashion, UK internal rulings often benefit some areas of the country over others. We used to be the world's largest economy at one point; we were for many years the second, now we are the sixth, and this trend of diminishing may well continue. Being part of the largest economic block in the world we pool our international influence with the whole EU. We no longer have an empire, alone we are a small island with some special qualities.I feel that our position is best served within an economic alliance, retaining what makes the UK special, but using the same economies of scale which has been so successful in the USA.
In pretty much the same way they would if we weren't there either. 1 out of 28 countries makes very little difference.....Especially when most of the alliances we are in are minorities.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| oldcodger 11 Oct 15 11.10pm |
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Quote Cameron's Four Key Demands
An “explicit statement” that the euro is not the official currency of the EU, making clear that Europe is a “multi-currency” union. Ministers want this declaration in order to protect the status of the pound sterling as a legitimate currency that will always exist. A new “red card” system to bring power back from Brussels to Britain. This would give groups of national parliaments the power to stop unwanted directives being handed down and to scrap existing EU laws. A new structure for the EU itself. The block of 28 nations must be reorganised to prevent the nine countries that are not in the eurozone being dominated by the 19 member states that are, with particular protections for the City of London. These all sound that things that can be 'promised' then backtracked on after the event, they're not actual treaty changes. Dave will play this like the Scottish Referendum. Lot's of demonising of the vote to leave and just enough to get the floating voters on board. Sneaky but it'll probably work. There's a lot of internal pressure to stay, but also external.. the EU, the US. As much as we may value people power, a lot can and will be done to tip the scales.
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Percy of Peckham  Eton Mess 12 Oct 15 5.36am |
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Depends what's driving this referendum ...business or immigration? Both issues will probably not be resolved as the result of mass debating in public over EU membership! Edited by Percy of Peckham (12 Oct 2015 6.05am)
Denial is not just a river in Egypt! |
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| Sportyteacher London 12 Oct 15 7.22am |
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Quote Percy of Peckham at 12 Oct 2015 5.36am
Depends what's driving this referendum ...business or immigration? Both issues will probably not be resolved as the result of mass debating in public over EU membership! Edited by Percy of Peckham (12 Oct 2015 6.05am) Move OUT of Europe and border controls would move from the likes of Calais to our shores e.g. Dover. Financial heart of Europe has largely been London therefore financial sector including jobs would face a massive hit if we were to pull out. As much as I hate the banks etc, they are a key aspect of UK economy. UK cannot afford to indulge in isolationist, ego driven belief that we can manage ourselves - we depend so much upon trading with Europe. Cameron is right to bargain with Europe upon what represents the better interests of not only home nation but also restructuring governance. The crunch will be what response he receives.
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