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April 16 2024 10.00pm

Labours Economic Policy U Turn !

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View ghosteagle's Profile ghosteagle Flag 13 Oct 15 7.05pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 7.00pm

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 6.18pm

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 13 Oct 2015 6.11pm

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 5.50pm

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 13 Oct 2015 5.41pm

Yesterday's ICM/Guardian poll put Labour just 4% behind....so something's working.

The party was totally fcuked just a couple of months ago.

Really...

In effect the conference season has played out to a nil-all draw, with standings exactly as they were in mid-Summer

You'll find that quote at the bottom of the poll you've used.

But that's not the only way of looking at it. It's not a 'draw' to have revived a corpse. It's a miracle.


Given the way he was presented by the press over the summer i'd say getting a 0-0 draw was a momentous achievement and an encouraging indication that the power of the printed media is on the decline.


This is a telephone poll of just 1000 people, not an exit poll. Get some perspective.

Yes, but given the way the press ridiculed and demonised Corbyn you would have thought that only the extreme left-wing and the delusional would have voiced any support for him. The fact that he appears to be holding his ground is an achievement and a victory over the printed press, which all should welcome.

 

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 13 Oct 15 7.33pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 7.05pm

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 7.00pm

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 6.18pm

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 13 Oct 2015 6.11pm

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 5.50pm

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 13 Oct 2015 5.41pm

Yesterday's ICM/Guardian poll put Labour just 4% behind....so something's working.

The party was totally fcuked just a couple of months ago.

Really...

In effect the conference season has played out to a nil-all draw, with standings exactly as they were in mid-Summer

You'll find that quote at the bottom of the poll you've used.

But that's not the only way of looking at it. It's not a 'draw' to have revived a corpse. It's a miracle.


Given the way he was presented by the press over the summer i'd say getting a 0-0 draw was a momentous achievement and an encouraging indication that the power of the printed media is on the decline.


This is a telephone poll of just 1000 people, not an exit poll. Get some perspective.

Yes, but given the way the press ridiculed and demonised Corbyn you would have thought that only the extreme left-wing and the delusional would have voiced any support for him. The fact that he appears to be holding his ground is an achievement and a victory over the printed press, which all should welcome.

The press seem to equally be fawning over him, as much as they are ridiculing or demonising him.

If he holds his own, labour will have gotten nowhere. Which is fine by me.

 


Optimistic as ever

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View ghosteagle's Profile ghosteagle Flag 13 Oct 15 7.40pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 7.33pm

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 7.05pm

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 7.00pm

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 6.18pm

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 13 Oct 2015 6.11pm

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 5.50pm

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 13 Oct 2015 5.41pm

Yesterday's ICM/Guardian poll put Labour just 4% behind....so something's working.

The party was totally fcuked just a couple of months ago.

Really...

In effect the conference season has played out to a nil-all draw, with standings exactly as they were in mid-Summer

You'll find that quote at the bottom of the poll you've used.

But that's not the only way of looking at it. It's not a 'draw' to have revived a corpse. It's a miracle.


Given the way he was presented by the press over the summer i'd say getting a 0-0 draw was a momentous achievement and an encouraging indication that the power of the printed media is on the decline.


This is a telephone poll of just 1000 people, not an exit poll. Get some perspective.

Yes, but given the way the press ridiculed and demonised Corbyn you would have thought that only the extreme left-wing and the delusional would have voiced any support for him. The fact that he appears to be holding his ground is an achievement and a victory over the printed press, which all should welcome.

The press seem to equally be fawning over him, as much as they are ridiculing or demonising him.

If he holds his own, labour will have gotten nowhere. Which is fine by me.

I have to disagree. The entire press was against him during the leadership contest, including the therotically left-wing media such as the guardian and the BBC. Given the hostility it is a very encouraging development within politics that thousands of people ignored the propaganda being printed in the press and voted for him as leader.
While i think that he has had a good start i hope he can push with his 'new' (basically, honest) brand of politics, but only time will tell.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 13 Oct 15 8.09pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 6.17pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 13 Oct 2015 6.09pm

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 5.39pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 13 Oct 2015 5.24pm

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 4.17pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 13 Oct 2015 3.55pm

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 3.23pm

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 2.48pm

Quote ghosteagle at 13 Oct 2015 2.26pm

Quote Stuk at 13 Oct 2015 2.20pm

It really doesn't matter. As if anyone believed Labour would curb their spending if they got back in power.

They've just undone a lie.

I don't think everyone was convinced by the rhetoric that Labour is predestined to overspend. It would have been better if the shadow chancellor had made his initial qualifications more overt but overall this is a reasonable move.


Only those who don't see that spending what you don't have is overspending. This u turn effectively admits that they'll always do this, but they've actually only done it to try and regain some favour with the jocks who have defected from them to SNP.

Also because it doesn't matter which way they vote as the Conservatives have an overall majority, so they will win the vote tomorrow. So obviously they think it looks better to their supporters to oppose the Conservatives no matter what.


As i said, i don't think everyone is convinced by the rhetoric that labour is predestined to overspend and i don't think this issue will change anybodies mind.
As i pointed out, his initial agreement was qualified and so there has been no u-turn but i still don't understand why he didn't make more of the qualifications so that he could head off a situation such as this. I agree it clearly plays better to labour supporters to oppose the tories on this.

If they didn't borrow and overspend then it would be the first Labour government ever not to do so.

Even the socialist shining glory that is the NHS was created on borrowed money. We only recently paid it off.
But let's be serious for a minute.

Do you really believe that party politics is worth a bean these days ? You have seen that promises made in manifestos are broken without blinking. It is the politics of saying what people want to hear. The global economy dictates policy more and more.

There will be a bun fight for floating voters at the next election and Corbyn's election by a lot of rabid lefties will guarantee that middle England will desert Labour in their droves, That is the reality.


I have to say i disagree. I think Corbyns challenge and his oppurtunity is if he can galvanise the 1/3 of the population who didn't vote during the GE. He has already shown a talent for politicising people who have become turned off by modern plastic politics and if he could achieve this he would be on his way. If being the operative word.

With regard to party politics and the tradition of breaking promises, it is again both Corbyns challenge and opportunity. He has made speeches about changing the politics of this country and it will be interesting to see if he can do it.


And you actually believe this ?


Somehow this is separate from all other bare faces lies and endless electioneering that is the stuff of modern politics ?

Well, i am prepared to give him a chance. I thought the way he campaigned during the leadership election did seperate him from modern politics, represented by the other 3, interesting to see if he can carry it on to effect a general change.
He has started well with his honest answer to the 'press the button' question and his appearance at PMQs. On the other hand i was disapointed that he back-tracked when it came to singing the national anthem and promised to sing it next time.


He is cynically attempting to appeal to the lack of trust in politicians and disillusion with adversarial politics.

You are falling for it evidently.

There is no room for honesty and niceness in politics.
It is an oxymoron.

People cannot handle the truth.

Your opinion is noted and we shall have to see how it pans out. In my defence i would point out that given his past as an outspoken left-wing firebrand if this is a cynical attempt to exploit the disillusionment of the public then he has been planing this move for over 2 decades. But, we shall both have to see. As i said, i haven't seen anything yet which would lead me to agree with you and the early signs, with relevance to his integrity, have been encouraging.

His personal views of two decades will have to play second fiddle to the party machine.
He has to appease all those to the right of him in the party (most of them) and then convince the electorate he is a real candidate for Prime Minister.
How will he do this by being honest about his 1970's far left views ?

He cannot.

He will either be making a lot of compromises or telling a lot of lies.

Normal service.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 13 Oct 15 8.48pm

John McDonnell's reasoning behind his 'u turn'in a letter to colleagues in the PLP...

Dear Colleague,

Charter for Budget Responsibility and the Fiscal Mandate

On Wednesday the vote will take place on an order to adopt the Government’s charter for Budget Responsibility including the fiscal mandate.

There is a significant difference between the charter and the mandate which the Labour Party agreed to support in January in that the Government’s proposal to require a continuing surplus on public sector net borrowing constrains the ability to borrow for future capital investment, a key plank of Labour’s growth strategy and one supported by the great majority of mainstream economists.

The consistent failure of George Osborne to abide by and achieve his economic targets over the last five years has led to a growing sense of incredulity over the economic basis for the charter process he has adopted.

Most have interpreted this exercise as little more than political game playing.

In my initial public comments and in my speech to Labour Party conference I made it clear that we had no time for these political games and would move on to a serious discussion about the future of our economy, including a review of our economic institutions.

At that stage, my approach was to show the inherent weaknesses of the Chancellor’s approach, the charter and its various get out clauses.

I suggested we vote for it nevertheless in support of the principle of tackling the deficit but to demonstrate that our approach would not involve austerity measures and we would seek to exclude capital investment from its severe and arbitrary constraints.

Because the debate on Wednesday is upon an order, we are unable to table a reasoned amendment to make that position clear. Indeed the initial clerk’s advice is that it may not be eligible even for publication.

I believe that since my initial reaction matters have moved on and we should now vote against the order.

The tone of our debate now also has to shift to a much more serious analysis of what our economy is likely to face in the coming year.

In the last fortnight there have been a series of reports highlighting the economic challenges facing the global economy as a result of the slowdown in emerging markets. These have included warnings from the International Monetary Fund’s latest financial stability report, the Bank of England chief economist, Andy Haldane, and the former Director of President Obama’s National Economic Council, Lawrence Summers.

I have consulted members of the economic advisory council, which has been established to advise us on economic trends and policy, and the general view is the same. Although we need to continue to bear down on the deficit, they believe that this is not a time in any way to undermine investment for growth strategies. That view has also been broadly supported in my discussion with other Shadow Cabinet and former Shadow Cabinet members and as well as colleagues from across the PLP.

There are other reasons for reconsideration of our position. As the nature and scale of the cuts Osborne is planning are emerging there is a growing reaction not just in our communities but even within the Conservative Party. The divisions over the cuts in tax credits to working families are just the first example of what we can expect as the cuts in other departments are exposed and the failure to find additional resources to bridge the growing expenditure gap in service areas like the NHS is revealed.

So I believe that we need to underline our position as an anti-austerity party by voting against the Charter on Wednesday. We will make clear our commitment to reducing the deficit in a fair and balanced way by publishing for the debate our own statement on budget responsibility. We will set out our plan for tackling the deficit not through punishing the most vulnerable and damaging our public services but by ending the unfair tax cuts to the wealthy, tackling tax evasion and investing for growth.

For all these reasons our position will be to vote against the Charter for Budget Responsibility on Wednesday and promote our own fairer alternative.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you would like to discuss this further.

Yours,

John

John McDonnell MP

Shadow Chancellor


Sounds reasonable. Rather he made his change of mind now than later...

I think he is still commited to reducing the deficit, just in a different way to the 'hit the poorest hardest' government.

 

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View Red-Blue-Yellow's Profile Red-Blue-Yellow Flag Surrey 13 Oct 15 9.07pm Send a Private Message to Red-Blue-Yellow Add Red-Blue-Yellow as a friend

The'Party Machine' is having to play 2nd fiddle to the membership, just like the PLP.
Those 1970's views have survived the rigors of sustained opposition for 40 years.
There is something going on here that, if you're not part of it, is hard to comprehend.
The people are belatedly regaining control of the 'Peoples Party'.
And it feels GOOD, so very, very good.

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 13 Oct 15 9.20pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 13 Oct 2015 9.07pm

The'Party Machine' is having to play 2nd fiddle to the membership, just like the PLP.
Those 1970's views have survived the rigors of sustained opposition for 40 years.
There is something going on here that, if you're not part of it, is hard to comprehend.
The people are belatedly regaining control of the 'Peoples Party'.
And it feels GOOD, so very, very good.


Taxi for Trotsky.

 

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phillanth Flag London 13 Oct 15 9.48pm


Taxi for Trotsky.

A truly great man. No modern politician is fit to to lick his boots.


 

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View laddo's Profile laddo Flag london 13 Oct 15 10.17pm Send a Private Message to laddo Add laddo as a friend

Scary scary scary sh*t! A party changing its policy after taking stock and reflecting on what's best to do for the country.

 


laddo

"People say, live fast, die young. I say live fast, die old. That's me, the non-conformist".
David Brent.

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View oldcodger's Profile oldcodger Flag 13 Oct 15 11.16pm Send a Private Message to oldcodger Add oldcodger as a friend

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 13 Oct 2015 9.07pm

The'Party Machine' is having to play 2nd fiddle to the membership, just like the PLP.
Those 1970's views have survived the rigors of sustained opposition for 40 years.
There is something going on here that, if you're not part of it, is hard to comprehend.
The people are belatedly regaining control of the 'Peoples Party'.
And it feels GOOD, so very, very good.


I just can't see where the votes are going to come from.

 

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 14 Oct 15 6.10am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Second u-turn on the cards:

[Link]

Funny how in some people's eyes a Labour u-turn is 'principled', yet a Tory u-turn denotes 'weakness'.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 14 Oct 15 7.14am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Quote matt_himself at 14 Oct 2015 6.10am

Second u-turn on the cards:

[Link]

Funny how in some people's eyes a Labour u-turn is 'principled', yet a Tory u-turn denotes 'weakness'.


Well any change to policy just a couple of weeks after your conference seems very strange to me - but there's not much front line experience in the shadow cabinet, so they are probably on quite a steep learning curve.

 

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