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 chris123  hove actually 23 Feb 16 8.48am |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
I've not seen anything that says it does. It's used as cheap labour. I suppose it depends on how skilled the labour is and how good the training is.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 23 Feb 16 9.11am |
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Originally posted by chris123
I suppose it depends on how skilled the labour is and how good the training is. Apologies for the links to blogs, I can't for the life of me think why the mainstream media don't report this stuff!
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Feb 16 9.23am |
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Originally posted by chris123
I'm sure like most things it's not perfect, but in principle I am in favour of job seekers working for their benefits. Me too, but they should not be performing work for profit or jobs that are otherwise done by paid workers. Nick's example is exactly how these schemes get abused - and then derailed - essentially creating slave labour. Community projects staffed by the unemployed is something I can get behind - Maybe with an incentive bonus to welfare. We shouldn't be punishing people for not having a job, or being made unemployed.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Feb 16 9.30am |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
There are plenty in this neck of the woods jamie. Get their dole money, go to food banks and buy/sell "acquired items" on eBay. They have the latest iPhones, Smart TV's and drink premium lager at our local pub and get takeaway on the way home. I'd like a "subsistence existence" too please! With regard to the rest of your post you're just creating barriers - implementing a food voucher system rather than giving them cash is not Rocket Salad! I'm curious as to what kind of dole scheme they're on that pays so well. That said, an mobile phone, TV, drinking 'premium lager' and getting a takeaway is hardly the life of Riley. A lot of people who are unemployed, and on benefits, also work legally and essentially top up their benefits. The problem with a food voucher system is you'd also need a transport voucher system, clothing voucher system, fuel purchase voucher system, utility voucher system etc. The problem isn't with handing these vouchers out, its with private firms recouping them, and then being credited which is a logistic nightmare to implement - Especially if you want the vouchers to be traceable to the person they were issued to. These schemes when tried before elsewhere in the world have only lead to greater cost to the state, increased problems for the unemployed, a black market in the vouchers.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Feb 16 9.34am |
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Originally posted by chris123
I suppose it depends on how skilled the labour is and how good the training is. Its like the old YTS scheme, for some people it worked (me included) but for an lot of people it was a scheme that was abused by employers to obtain cheap labour, delivered minimal to no training - It worked best when it was tied to apprenticeships. In situations like the one Nick refers to it actually increases unemployment, because employers will use it obtain free staff, rather than paying someone to do the job. The idea of any scheme must be to create employment for the unemployed, provide skills and experience. Not for companies to obtain free labour.
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| chris123 hove actually 23 Feb 16 9.42am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Its like the old YTS scheme, for some people it worked (me included) but for an lot of people it was a scheme that was abused by employers to obtain cheap labour, delivered minimal to no training - It worked best when it was tied to apprenticeships. In situations like the one Nick refers to it actually increases unemployment, because employers will use it obtain free staff, rather than paying someone to do the job. The idea of any scheme must be to create employment for the unemployed, provide skills and experience. Not for companies to obtain free labour. Then there should be proper metrics to establish the quality of training - it's the principle I'm in favour of and it should be fit for purpose and measurable.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Feb 16 9.56am |
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Originally posted by chris123
Then there should be proper metrics to establish the quality of training - it's the principle I'm in favour of and it should be fit for purpose and measurable. The best method of achieving that is to properly fund apprenticeships into modern businesses, including larger private enterprise such as large corporate entities, and restrict the 'vocational degree' approach where by companies simply just fill their ranks with graduates. Problem is that this route has been massively undercut since the 90s. Go back a generation, and your chances of obtaining a solicitor position, for example, was just as well served through an apprenticeship as having studied law. The problem was it was more expensive to the state and companies.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 23 Feb 16 10.10am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Its like the old YTS scheme, for some people it worked (me included) but for an lot of people it was a scheme that was abused by employers to obtain cheap labour, delivered minimal to no training - It worked best when it was tied to apprenticeships. In situations like the one Nick refers to it actually increases unemployment, because employers will use it obtain free staff, rather than paying someone to do the job. The idea of any scheme must be to create employment for the unemployed, provide skills and experience. Not for companies to obtain free labour. Interestingly, those on 'workfare' schemes are not counted in unemployment figures.
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| silvertop Portishead 23 Feb 16 10.31am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Me too, but they should not be performing work for profit or jobs that are otherwise done by paid workers. Nick's example is exactly how these schemes get abused - and then derailed - essentially creating slave labour. Community projects staffed by the unemployed is something I can get behind - Maybe with an incentive bonus to welfare. We shouldn't be punishing people for not having a job, or being made unemployed. Under an older scheme, I worked for 6 months in an office for no pay except they gave me lunch and travel money. The social stuck £10 a week on my dole. Exploited? Yes. However, the firm took me on at the end of 6 months and I have never looked back. The career has hardly been without the odd pot hole; but at least I have had one. People who dismiss schemes such as this as slave labour etc. are short sighted. Both sides benefit. In tough recruiting times, employers employ from the employed. Apply from almost any kind of gainful employment and you have a hope.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 23 Feb 16 10.35am |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Under an older scheme, I worked for 6 months in an office for no pay except they gave me lunch and travel money. The social stuck £10 a week on my dole. Exploited? Yes. However, the firm took me on at the end of 6 months and I have never looked back. The career has hardly been without the odd pot hole; but at least I have had one. People who dismiss schemes such as this as slave labour etc. are short sighted. Both sides benefit. In tough recruiting times, employers employ from the employed. Apply from almost any kind of gainful employment and you have a hope. I think your case (and I'm pleased for you) is an exception not the rule, unless you can persuade me otherwise.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Feb 16 10.47am |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Under an older scheme, I worked for 6 months in an office for no pay except they gave me lunch and travel money. The social stuck £10 a week on my dole. Exploited? Yes. However, the firm took me on at the end of 6 months and I have never looked back. The career has hardly been without the odd pot hole; but at least I have had one. People who dismiss schemes such as this as slave labour etc. are short sighted. Both sides benefit. In tough recruiting times, employers employ from the employed. Apply from almost any kind of gainful employment and you have a hope. Me too, YTS worked out great for me. But for a lot of people it wasn't true. The system needs to be set in advance to ensure that its not producing a 'slave labour' force. I don't mind people working unemployed towards a real prospect of a job or employment, that's how it should work - Like an Intern job. But there are also the horror stories of people essentially being exploited. It has to be towards gainful employment - ie a career. Just providing people to work for Tesco's or JD Sports isn't enough - It has to always be to the benefit of individual, society and company. Not a means by which the unemployed are punished.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Feb 16 10.51am |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Interestingly, those on 'workfare' schemes are not counted in unemployment figures. Indeed, because Politics is always about looking like you're doing something, than actually doing something. True of both sides. Its like dealing with poverty, simply by changing the definition, rather than the issue. Sickens me. The only thing lower than a career politician is a sex offender.
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