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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 29 Apr 16 11.54am Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by legaleagle

Apologies for the lengthy post...

At times is the spectre of "anti semitism" abused where people are simply accusing the Israeli government of acting inappropriately? Sure.

At times,do people come out with some dodgy utterances that expose underlying anti semitic-like sentiments,and try to cover it up by saying they are merely "anti zionists"? or victims of the "zionist media/lobby"?Equally sure.

Balance is all.Balance is not being slow to recognise there do seem to be disturbing pockets of anti-semitism within Labour.Equal balance in recognising the cancer doesn't just exist there and very far from attaches itself to all in the Labour party who are at times very critical of the Israeli government's actions.

We need to be careful of demonising whole groups indiscriminately and collectively for the sins of their governments,whether it be Saudis,Serbs in Bosnia,Israelis or Brits

So,I do agree with those who would say the media are focusing on this issue with the intensity they are so as to basically use it as another way of attacking Labour.If they looked equally as hard,likely they'd find a not insignificant amount of it on the right.And,indeed as I've posted before, a poll last year showed Lib Dem voters as those most inclined (still a relatively small minority) to anti semitic sentiments.

So,when Ken says Hitler supported sending Jews to Israel (Ken seemingly being ignorant of the fact Israel didn't exist then and the zionist goal was a "national home" as opposed necessarily to a state) before he "went mad"and killed 6 million,its actually pretty dodgy in that he seems to me suggesting there is some equivalence between Hitler (Post Mein Kampf)and pro-zionists and suggesting zionism is dodgy because someone like Hitler was in favour of it. It may not be anti semitic but its a crass,offensive,dodgy and dumb thing to say at this time.

He also said today he had never heard anyone in the labour party make an anti semitic assertion.Funny that,given,as just one example, he knew Naz Shah had posted her endorsement of the view that Israelis,(though no doubt in her dodgy mind just Jewish Israelis),should all be transferrd from Israel en masse and resettled in the USA.(Not least also showing her crass ignorance of the 2 million Jews expelled from Middle Eastern countries (with property expropriated)where they'd lived for hundreds of years or longer to Israel and the Jewish presence in the area since biblical times

So,lets not get too eager to paint Ken as a martyr at the hands of the pro-Isael lobby.They may very well be after him and try to "tar" him but it seems he's doing quite enough that's dodgy to put himself in the doghouse without any "Jewish lobby" assistance. Thus, call him what he is;a cnut, and that saddens me having been a supporter of his at the GLC and as Mayor.

The HAMAS charter states that"the Jews" were responsible for the French Revolution and both world wars.Can you imagine if something similar was said about African people or those from the Indian sub-continent? Corbyn (whom I generally have some time for)and Ken would rightly be up in arms about it and refuse to share a platform/expel anyone supporting them from the party.

Yet because Palestinians are viewed as the oppressed(not unreasonably) and Israelis always the bad guys (not always 100% reasonably),it seems to allow for an extremely reactionary ideological group within the Palestinian community with clear anti semitic (not simply anti zionist) sentiments in its charter to be embraced as freedom fighters and platforms shared with them.Perhaps we need to be more careful when we say we support the good guys not the dodgy ones to make sure we don't embrace any of the dodgy ones


Edited by legaleagle (28 Apr 2016 9.29pm)

My opinion (for what it's worth) from a position with no axe to grind in either direction.

I see this as a case of "the left" (for want of a better term) being hoisted by their own petard with regard to this sort of stuff. They have, for ages, been tarring anyone with any uncomplimentary view of the best way to deal with groups they support (be they muslims, urban youths, the gay community, immigrants, whatever) as being racist/homophobic/islamophobic/etc. Some may well be (almost certainly are) guilty as charged, but it is used to shut down debate with gay abandon without actually bothering to address the points within.

What's happened here is that Ken (total dickwad though he undoubtedly is) has said some stuff which is thoughtless and undoubtedly offensive to Jews, but is not (in my mind) anti-Semitic. For instance, if Hitler did, indeed, favour a Jewish homeland (albeit for reasons of getting them out of Germany rather than reasons of altruism toward the Zionist cause) then he could be accurately described as a Zionist, surely. If he didn't hold that view, then what Ken has done is spout some crap version of history (not the first, not the last). The Jews, despite their tragic recent history, have no more right to not be offended than anyone else. The other no-mark MP (whose name eludes me) said, if I understand correctly, something along the lines of "if the US love Israel so much, and want them to have their own state, why not put it in the US rather than on land currently occupied by Arabs" (paraphrasing and extracting what I believe she was getting at). Again, insensitive given the history of Jewish deportation, but ant-Semitic? Really? I don't really see it.

So, you live by the "you're an xxxist" card, die by it, but I don't actually think anything said was worthy of being banned.

 

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View johnfirewall's Profile johnfirewall Flag 29 Apr 16 12.08pm Send a Private Message to johnfirewall Add johnfirewall as a friend

Originally posted by npn

My opinion (for what it's worth) from a position with no axe to grind in either direction.

I see this as a case of "the left" (for want of a better term) being hoisted by their own petard with regard to this sort of stuff. They have, for ages, been tarring anyone with any uncomplimentary view of the best way to deal with groups they support (be they muslims, urban youths, the gay community, immigrants, whatever) as being racist/homophobic/islamophobic/etc. Some may well be (almost certainly are) guilty as charged, but it is used to shut down debate with gay abandon without actually bothering to address the points within.

What's happened here is that Ken (total dickwad though he undoubtedly is) has said some stuff which is thoughtless and undoubtedly offensive to Jews, but is not (in my mind) anti-Semitic. For instance, if Hitler did, indeed, favour a Jewish homeland (albeit for reasons of getting them out of Germany rather than reasons of altruism toward the Zionist cause) then he could be accurately described as a Zionist, surely. If he didn't hold that view, then what Ken has done is spout some crap version of history (not the first, not the last). The Jews, despite their tragic recent history, have no more right to not be offended than anyone else. The other no-mark MP (whose name eludes me) said, if I understand correctly, something along the lines of "if the US love Israel so much, and want them to have their own state, why not put it in the US rather than on land currently occupied by Arabs" (paraphrasing and extracting what I believe she was getting at). Again, insensitive given the history of Jewish deportation, but ant-Semitic? Really? I don't really see it.

So, you live by the "you're an xxxist" card, die by it, but I don't actually think anything said was worthy of being banned.

The difference is she probably toned down her comment from one previously having a picture of the sea.

As for what Red Ken was thinking, god only knows.

 

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Hoof Hearted 29 Apr 16 12.16pm

Originally posted by npn

I see this as a case of "the left" (for want of a better term) being hoisted by their own petard with regard to this sort of stuff. They have, for ages, been tarring anyone with any uncomplimentary view of the best way to deal with groups they support (be they muslims, urban youths, the gay community, immigrants, whatever) as being racist/homophobic/islamophobic/etc. Some may well be (almost certainly are) guilty as charged, but it is used to shut down debate with gay abandon without actually bothering to address the points within.


I'm liking what you did here npn!

 

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 29 Apr 16 12.26pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

I'm liking what you did here npn!

yeah, I noticed, but I liked it

 

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 29 Apr 16 8.14pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

By Sam Kriss - Journalist and Jew

"It's hard being Jewish in Britain today. People give you strange looks and ask you stranger questions. They'll tell you without any shame exactly how you ought to feel about national and foreign politics. You can very easily get singled out and made to feel different, just because your ancestors practiced a slightly unusual faith. Strangers will start thundering at you from podiums and newspaper columns, seeming to address a general audience but really ranting directly at you, and it can make you feel afraid. But they want you to feel afraid. They keep on saying it: be afraid, Jewboy, bad things are coming for you. What's worse is that this isn't just coming from the general rabble; one of the country's main parties seems captive to Europe's oldest and most shameful hatred. Its public figures will swear up and down that they have nothing against Jews, they love Jews, they love British diversity, and what's more, they have full and unquestioning support for the state of Israel. But if they love me so much, why do they insist on shouting me down whenever I happen to disagree with them, or take a stance on the Middle East that differs from the party line? Why are they getting away with this? Why won't anyone come out and admit that the Conservative party has a problem with anti-Semitism?


If you read the papers, though, it looks like it's Labour that has the anti-Semitism problem. The story has been circulating for months now, faster and frothier with each rotation, as a detachment of journalistic shock troops ransack every inconsequential student group or constituency party, looking for someone, anyone, with negative things to say about the Jews. The latest victim is Naz Shah MP, the honourable member for Bradford West, who's been forced to resign from her post as parliamentary secretary to John McDonnell after a series of anti-Semitic facebook posts were revealed Guido Fawkes and the Jewish Chronicle. Most shocking was an image that suggested the State of Israel be removed to North America. But despite the censure, Ms Shah still retains the Labour whip. As a Telegraph leader put it, "that speaks volumes about Mr Corbyn's disgustingly inadequate response to anti-Semitism in his party." As a British Jew, I should be very afraid.

And I am. But I'm not afraid of Jeremy Corbyn or Naz Shah. I am afraid of the massed bien-pensants, those who claim to know what should be worrying me better than I do, who claim to be fighting my corner without my ever having asked for it. Naz Shah's "disgusting" Facebook posts were not about Jews; they were about the state of Israel. These are not the same thing.


It really shouldn't have to be repeated at this point, but anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. Israel is a foreign country, halfway across the world, with a long history of carrying out some extremely unpleasant acts on its three and a half million captive Palestinians. While it may claim to be Jewish, that does not mean it can then use an entire global Jewish diaspora as one vast human shield. The Jewish people have been around for much longer than Israel; most of us never asked for it, and many of us would like to have as little to do with it as possible. When opponents of Israel treat Jews in general and the government in Jerusalem as if they were the same thing, blaming one for the actions of the other, they are rightfully condemned. Why should it be any different when the same line's coming from people who claim to support us?


I doubt I'm the only British Jew who has encountered this phenomenon: being accosted by some smiling and well-meaning philosemite, so eager to tell you how much they love our people and how much they love Israel – and when you mention that, actually, you don't see much to love in murderous tinpot regime committing atrocities in your name, everything sours, and you're treated to the strange spectacle of someone who's never held a Torah in their life accusing you of being insufficiently Jewish, of being a self-hating Jew, of not understanding your own religion. It's the same when I'm told by newspapers and politicians that as a Jew I'm required to feel threatened by any anti-Israel sentiment. It might be paternalistic and condescending rather than exterminationist, but there's a word for this attitude: it's anti-Semitism.


Edited by Kermit8 (29 Apr 2016 8.17pm)

 


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View Bert the Head's Profile Bert the Head Flag Epsom 29 Apr 16 8.29pm Send a Private Message to Bert the Head Add Bert the Head as a friend

Originally posted by johnfirewall

The difference is she probably toned down her comment from one previously having a picture of the sea.

As for what Red Ken was thinking, god only knows.

removed wrong link for response


Edited by Bert the Head (29 Apr 2016 8.50pm)

 

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View Bert the Head's Profile Bert the Head Flag Epsom 29 Apr 16 8.53pm Send a Private Message to Bert the Head Add Bert the Head as a friend

Originally posted by legaleagle

Apologies for the lengthy post...

At times is the spectre of "anti semitism" abused where people are simply accusing the Israeli government of acting inappropriately? Sure.

At times,do people come out with some dodgy utterances that expose underlying anti semitic-like sentiments,and try to cover it up by saying they are merely "anti zionists"? or victims of the "zionist media/lobby"?Equally sure.

Balance is all.Balance is not being slow to recognise there do seem to be disturbing pockets of anti-semitism within Labour.Equal balance in recognising the cancer doesn't just exist there and very far from attaches itself to all in the Labour party who are at times very critical of the Israeli government's actions.

We need to be careful of demonising whole groups indiscriminately and collectively for the sins of their governments,whether it be Saudis,Serbs in Bosnia,Israelis or Brits

So,I do agree with those who would say the media are focusing on this issue with the intensity they are so as to basically use it as another way of attacking Labour.If they looked equally as hard,likely they'd find a not insignificant amount of it on the right.And,indeed as I've posted before, a poll last year showed Lib Dem voters as those most inclined (still a relatively small minority) to anti semitic sentiments.

So,when Ken says Hitler supported sending Jews to Israel (Ken seemingly being ignorant of the fact Israel didn't exist then and the zionist goal was a "national home" as opposed necessarily to a state) before he "went mad"and killed 6 million,its actually pretty dodgy in that he seems to me suggesting there is some equivalence between Hitler (Post Mein Kampf)and pro-zionists and suggesting zionism is dodgy because someone like Hitler was in favour of it. It may not be anti semitic but its a crass,offensive,dodgy and dumb thing to say at this time.

He also said today he had never heard anyone in the labour party make an anti semitic assertion.Funny that,given,as just one example, he knew Naz Shah had posted her endorsement of the view that Israelis,(though no doubt in her dodgy mind just Jewish Israelis),should all be transferrd from Israel en masse and resettled in the USA.(Not least also showing her crass ignorance of the 2 million Jews expelled from Middle Eastern countries (with property expropriated)where they'd lived for hundreds of years or longer to Israel and the Jewish presence in the area since biblical times

So,lets not get too eager to paint Ken as a martyr at the hands of the pro-Isael lobby.They may very well be after him and try to "tar" him but it seems he's doing quite enough that's dodgy to put himself in the doghouse without any "Jewish lobby" assistance. Thus, call him what he is;a cnut, and that saddens me having been a supporter of his at the GLC and as Mayor.

The HAMAS charter states that"the Jews" were responsible for the French Revolution and both world wars.Can you imagine if something similar was said about African people or those from the Indian sub-continent? Corbyn (whom I generally have some time for)and Ken would rightly be up in arms about it and refuse to share a platform/expel anyone supporting them from the party.

Yet because Palestinians are viewed as the oppressed(not unreasonably) and Israelis always the bad guys (not always 100% reasonably),it seems to allow for an extremely reactionary ideological group within the Palestinian community with clear anti semitic (not simply anti zionist) sentiments in its charter to be embraced as freedom fighters and platforms shared with them.Perhaps we need to be more careful when we say we support the good guys not the dodgy ones to make sure we don't embrace any of the dodgy ones

You make some good points. But in relation to Livingstone's point about Hitler initially brokering a deal with Zionists to move people to Israel (Palestine as it was then), which we all know is what he meant), it is a historical fact. The Transfer Agreement was made by the Nazi state and Zionist German Jews in the early 1930s and was agreed by the Zionist Federation of Germany. It was controversial but it happened.

If find it a bit weird that only a year and 3 months after people came over all Je suis Charlie about Freedom of expression, a person cannot repeat a historical fact.

In my opinion this Kaffulle is about one thing and one thing only. It is a demonstration of the fact that Israel must be allowed to carryout their slow genocide on the Palestinian people. Any opposition to this will be crushed.

Edited by legaleagle (28 Apr 2016 9.29pm)

 

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 29 Apr 16 8.57pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by Bert the Head

You made some good points. But in relation to Livingstone's point about Hitler initially brokering a deal with Zionists to move people to Israel, it is a historical fact. The Transfer Agreement was made by the Nazi state and Zionist German Jews in the early 1930s and was agreed by the Zionist Federation of Germany. It was controversial but it happened.

If find it a bit weird that only a year and 3 months after people came over all Je suis Charlie about Freedom of expression, a person cannot repeat a historical fact.

This Kaffulle is about one thing and one thing only. It is a demonstration of the fact that Israel must be allowed to carryout their slow genocide on the Palestinian people. Any opposition to this will be crushed.

Yeah but it's all context. Hitler was never doing them a favour and in support of Zionism, he just wanted them gone from Germany. And he certainly hated Jews the very moment Germany waved the white flag in the trenches of Belgium. He didn't hate them after he went mad. He hated Jews all along. And you could argue was very calculated in his actions rather than being mad.

This confusion of Judaism, Zionism and Israeli Govt policy is a delicate issue and gets people into all sorts of trouble, often those who feel the need to be in the news/social media. They should either keep quiet or encourage debate over Israeli Govt policy rather than bringing in bizarre snippets of history or confusion over Jews, Judaism, Zionism, Israel.

They have a responsibility as opposition to govt but are embarrassing themselves.

 


COYP

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View Bert the Head's Profile Bert the Head Flag Epsom 29 Apr 16 11.57pm Send a Private Message to Bert the Head Add Bert the Head as a friend

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Yeah but it's all context. Hitler was never doing them a favour and in support of Zionism, he just wanted them gone from Germany. And he certainly hated Jews the very moment Germany waved the white flag in the trenches of Belgium. He didn't hate them after he went mad. He hated Jews all along. And you could argue was very calculated in his actions rather than being mad.

This confusion of Judaism, Zionism and Israeli Govt policy is a delicate issue and gets people into all sorts of trouble, often those who feel the need to be in the news/social media. They should either keep quiet or encourage debate over Israeli Govt policy rather than bringing in bizarre snippets of history or confusion over Jews, Judaism, Zionism, Israel.

They have a responsibility as opposition to govt but are embarrassing themselves.

 

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View Bert the Head's Profile Bert the Head Flag Epsom 30 Apr 16 12.24am Send a Private Message to Bert the Head Add Bert the Head as a friend

I agree of course Hitler wasn't doing Jewish people a favour with his policy of transportation and I don't think Livingstone was saying he was.

But in my view the conflation of criticism of Israeli Govt policy with antisemitism is stifling debate and supporting Israel's murder of Palestinian people; Its basically political correctness gone mad.

I accept that European history is full of dreadful acts of inhumanity (though humans definitely did it just as humans are murdering Palestinians) against Jewish people, including the massacres, pogroms and of course the holocaust.

I have recently read lots of Jewish content providers who were supposed supporters of the Labour party who have said that they cannot support the Labour Party anymore. This is basically because Corbyn won't support Israel's genocide. Well a while back I used to support Israel but I cannot support that murdering nation anymore. I am glad the Labour Party doesn't either.

Having a party that stands up for the weak against the powerful is brilliant.

Edited by Bert the Head (30 Apr 2016 12.25am)

 

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View NickinOX's Profile NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 30 Apr 16 1.41am Send a Private Message to NickinOX Add NickinOX as a friend

Originally posted by Bert the Head

I agree of course Hitler wasn't doing Jewish people a favour with his policy of transportation and I don't think Livingstone was saying he was.

But in my view the conflation of criticism of Israeli Govt policy with antisemitism is stifling debate and supporting Israel's murder of Palestinian people; Its basically political correctness gone mad.

I accept that European history is full of dreadful acts of inhumanity (though humans definitely did it just as humans are murdering Palestinians) against Jewish people, including the massacres, pogroms and of course the holocaust.

I have recently read lots of Jewish content providers who were supposed supporters of the Labour party who have said that they cannot support the Labour Party anymore. This is basically because Corbyn won't support Israel's genocide. Well a while back I used to support Israel but I cannot support that murdering nation anymore. I am glad the Labour Party doesn't either.

Having a party that stands up for the weak against the powerful is brilliant.

Edited by Bert the Head (30 Apr 2016 12.25am)

First, do you even know what the definition of genocide is? If Israel is committing it, brutal as Israeli government policy has sometimes been, then they've been spectacularly unsuccessful for nearly 70 years despite their possession of military might. Mind you, the UN definition fits the policies and actions of Hamas and Hizbollah. But they're your oppressed so it's ok. Right?

Livingstone explicitly claimed that it was a fact that Hitler supported Zionism. That's not just ignorant that is a lie. That is also an argument made by the extreme right when trying to deny the holocaust.

Naz Shah calling for resettlement for all Jews, as that is what her posting clearly meant, is not anti-Zionist it is racist. Has she talked about Israeli government policy being counter-productive, that would be one thing. But she didn't. She's as racist as Livingstone.

If racism and the support of groups that would exterminate whole peoples passes for standing up for the oppressed. God help us.


Edited by NickinOX (30 Apr 2016 1.46am)

 


If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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legaleagle Flag 30 Apr 16 9.58am

I find myself right in the middle.I have posted my views earlier and I am also at times not a million miles away from the views of the individual whose comments Kermit posted.

But,just on two points:Israel's government (like quite a few others not attracting the same opprobrium ) has carried out awful policies of brutal oppression.But,its not genocide and the lazy usage of the term in this context undermines both the credibility of those who use the term and the usage where appropriate of the term.

What Israel does at times has,say, an equivalence to Turkey and the Kurds...it doesn't have an equivalence to say "us" in North America and Australia or the Spanish in Central and Latin America..or to the Holocaust, which might equate to "genocide".

In terms of Ken and Hitler, yes its true that the transfer agreement existed.Trying to negotiate to get Jews away from Germany,post Mein Kampf and Hitler coming to power? Hardly dodgy IMO on the part of the zionists or a point to be legitimately used in an anti-Israel context.. Ken's reference to such matters in the context he was speaking about (ie are there anti-Jewish views circulating in the Labour Party?) was on the other hand well dodgy.

 

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