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More lunacy from the left

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Hoof Hearted 25 Apr 16 11.28am

Originally posted by johnfirewall

We'll leave matters of the economy aside, because their views are based on a vehement adherence to a specific system, but at least they stick to them.

It's the selective support for democracy and freedom of speech which need to be highlighted.

Then of course you have this ethos of looking after 'the people' another area of great subjectivity, a group whose members are carefully chosen to consist purely of those deemed worse off, with everyone more prosperous painted as the villain, even the tradesman who no longer needs representation among the 'workers'.

Edited by johnfirewall (25 Apr 2016 11.22am)

I have the feeling that the rise in the number of Food Banks in the UK is as a political weapon against capitalism rather than in response to a genuine need.

 

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View johnfirewall's Profile johnfirewall Flag 25 Apr 16 11.53am Send a Private Message to johnfirewall Add johnfirewall as a friend

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

I have the feeling that the rise in the number of Food Banks in the UK is as a political weapon against capitalism rather than in response to a genuine need.

It's an anti-austerity tool like all the kids being sent to school without breakfast.

My cousin had a kid sent to her class in pyjamas. That wasn't because they couldn't afford clothes as a result of benefit cuts.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Apr 16 12.29pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

I have the feeling that the rise in the number of Food Banks in the UK is as a political weapon against capitalism rather than in response to a genuine need.

Well, in fairness, left wing politics generally stems from a criticism of capitalism. I also think its as dangerous to ignore criticisms of capitalisms failings, as it would be to ignore criticisms of Communisms of Fascisms failings.

Social movements tend to arise out of a need or issue in society, food banks aren't an exception. My life time has seen a significant issue arising in terms of homelessness and increased need of people who are in employment on social support and benefits, as well as a greater reliance on charity for the provisions of social support, both among the employed and the unemployed.

Part of the problem of these issues, has come from the inequalities of society, notably by successive governments policy of targeting 'savings' in fringe areas and to support economic pressure groups focuses.

The failure to tackle the rising cost of housing from the property boom, care in the community, Freedom of Movements effects on wages, lack of council housing, speculation on the housing markets, cuts in public services, a minimum wages not linked to the cost of living have all functioned to undermine the position of the working class.

People are using food banks because they serve a need in society. Those people might not all be actually staving derelicts in abject poverty - but they are a real thing, driven by a true disparity and the increased real terms impoverishment of the working classes in society (driven in part by cheap migrant labour, wage stagnation and rising essential costs).

I think we cannot just ignore the fact that the working classes, and notably the manual working classes have not been completely shafted by polices and changes, by and during, the last five governments.

Probably the two biggest factors involved have been the death of Industrial Britain and the EU Freedom of Movement in creating a poverty of opportunity.

Working was always a route to escape from poverty during the post war years - and we have completely removed this capacity to escape poverty through employment for many people in or bordering on poverty.

In my fathers age a man with few skills,, working in a fairly average capacity could support a wife and two kids. Now that man is better of remaining unemployed than working, and not because benefits are too high, but wages are far to low. The minimum wage is far lower than anyone could reasonably be expected to survive on whilst fulfilling family responsibilities or duties.

 


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Hoof Hearted 25 Apr 16 12.45pm

I'm not arguing the need for food banks and/or organisations such as the Salvation Army with soup kitchens or the benefit of having them.

No matter what, people will fall into despair and need help.

It's the RISE in the number of them that I question and I believe that there already was enough of them to prevent hunger from our genuine needy folk.

I believe many of them are created as propaganda machines more than much needed relief against genuine poverty/hunger.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 25 Apr 16 1.23pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

I'm not arguing the need for food banks and/or organisations such as the Salvation Army with soup kitchens or the benefit of having them.

No matter what, people will fall into despair and need help.

It's the RISE in the number of them that I question and I believe that there already was enough of them to prevent hunger from our genuine needy folk.

I believe many of them are created as propaganda machines more than much needed relief against genuine poverty/hunger.

Arguably this is something we've actually become worse at rather than better. My suspicion in regards to food banks is that two major factors drive them. It would be churlish to assume that there hasn't been an increase in need, but I also think, that the 400 fold increase in 'food banks' also stems from the far more corporate nature of charities. Charity in the modern age is 'business', and to an extent food banks represent a method of conducting that business - irrespective of their need, charities like any business require 'areas of growth', causes and publicity to prosper. Food banks are a cheaper option to say Homeless shelters for charities.

I was having a chat with Keith, a homeless local, recently. His opinion was that food was no longer really an issue for homeless, it is hostels. Interestingly, Reading has seen a growth in charity food outlets and banks, whilst all of the homeless shelters (some run by the same charities) have closed in the last five years.


 


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View leifandersonshair's Profile leifandersonshair Flag Newport 25 Apr 16 8.09pm Send a Private Message to leifandersonshair Add leifandersonshair as a friend

Originally posted by fed up eagle

I don't like the Tories anymore than you, but they are probably doing their best sorting out Labour's dreadful mess. The situation is what it is, you can't polish a turd. All the Tories have done is try and reign in the ludicrous level of spending and profligacy that Labour sanctioned. The level of spending on benefits and some services are totally out of control. Labour should never be allowed in power again. If you seriously think we could carry on the way we were then you're totally deluded. Some of the cuts don't go far enough.

Edited by fed up eagle (24 Apr 2016 11.58am)

Some of the cuts don't go far enough?!?! Blimey. Let's just get rid of the whole welfare state, that'll get rid of the shirkers and shiftless layabouts. Oh, and the poor and old. But hey, they're economically unproductive right?

Labour had a global crash on their watch. Thanks to years of soft touch regulation (started by Thatcher, continued by New Labour) they had to bail out the banks (even the Tories and Lib Dems agreed on that). But the Tories have used the situation for ideologically driven cuts- cuts to public services, and cuts to corporation tax. They've cut too deep, too quickly. And anyone who thinks 'we're all in it together' is deluded.

Although, I suppose all the food banks are good examples of Cameron's 'Big Society'.

 

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View fed up eagle's Profile fed up eagle Flag Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 25 Apr 16 8.19pm Send a Private Message to fed up eagle Add fed up eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

I have the feeling that the rise in the number of Food Banks in the UK is as a political weapon against capitalism rather than in response to a genuine need.

Yeah that's right. Look how fat these people are who go to food banks, they ain't exactly going without are they? And they always seem to have money for fags and alcohol too. People always exaggerate these days. Just attention seeking bull5h1ters on the make or leftist idealists with an axe to grind.

 

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View fed up eagle's Profile fed up eagle Flag Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 25 Apr 16 8.28pm Send a Private Message to fed up eagle Add fed up eagle as a friend

Originally posted by leifandersonshair

Some of the cuts don't go far enough?!?! Blimey. Let's just get rid of the whole welfare state, that'll get rid of the shirkers and shiftless layabouts. Oh, and the poor and old. But hey, they're economically unproductive right?

Labour had a global crash on their watch. Thanks to years of soft touch regulation (started by Thatcher, continued by New Labour) they had to bail out the banks (even the Tories and Lib Dems agreed on that). But the Tories have used the situation for ideologically driven cuts- cuts to public services, and cuts to corporation tax. They've cut too deep, too quickly. And anyone who thinks 'we're all in it together' is deluded.

Although, I suppose all the food banks are good examples of Cameron's 'Big Society'.

No lets make it so it can't be abused by feckless tw@ts who can't be arsed to do a decent days work and think the world owes them a living. Women churning out baybeees so they can get a bigger house on the taxpayer and immigrants who come here solely to abuse our ludicrous generosity. I'd make it so only genuine cases in genuine trouble could tap into the welfare system. It's not there to be abused by the terminally selfish, stupid and lazy.

And yes, Thatcher may have started soft touch regulation but Blair and Bruin continued it and as usual let it reach catastrophic proportions. God the left are thick.

 

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View johnfirewall's Profile johnfirewall Flag 25 Apr 16 9.25pm Send a Private Message to johnfirewall Add johnfirewall as a friend

Now you mention it, I don't think smokers should have access to food banks. But if you think I'm out of order for saying it you're just supporting this system where you don't have to make such sacrifices.

The Tories are the bad guys, but it's not their fault everyone gets caught up in the net. If you think we came from a system of free healthcare and support for the unemployed to where we are now, where people choose not to work, something needs to change and the cuts along with the living wage are the closest we've ever been to reversing the abuse.

 

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View fed up eagle's Profile fed up eagle Flag Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 25 Apr 16 10.06pm Send a Private Message to fed up eagle Add fed up eagle as a friend

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Now you mention it, I don't think smokers should have access to food banks. But if you think I'm out of order for saying it you're just supporting this system where you don't have to make such sacrifices.

The Tories are the bad guys, but it's not their fault everyone gets caught up in the net. If you think we came from a system of free healthcare and support for the unemployed to where we are now, where people choose not to work, something needs to change and the cuts along with the living wage are the closest we've ever been to reversing the abuse.

It's become an out of control monster. When I hear people talking about the 'savage cuts' I have to laugh. These people are totally delusional. Spending has gone back to levels of 6-8 years ago. It's the air of entitlement that these scumbags have. When you're waking at 4am every day to earn a living knowing that you're being taxed to keep the Jeremy Kyle generation in the luxury that they have become accustomed to is just totally disgraceful. I now resent every penny in tax that I pay knowing where some of it goes. Of course Labour got these 5h1t bags hooked up on benefits so the next time there was an election they would vote for them, effectively Labour's very own client state.
The out of control juggernaut that is the benefits system will take many many years to stop, if we ever manage to. I can't see it myself. We're saddled with this bloated behemoth for ever I reckon, and a generation of feckless layabouts.

Edited by fed up eagle (25 Apr 2016 10.09pm)

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 26 Apr 16 9.40am

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Now you mention it, I don't think smokers should have access to food banks. But if you think I'm out of order for saying it you're just supporting this system where you don't have to make such sacrifices.

The Tories are the bad guys, but it's not their fault everyone gets caught up in the net. If you think we came from a system of free healthcare and support for the unemployed to where we are now, where people choose not to work, something needs to change and the cuts along with the living wage are the closest we've ever been to reversing the abuse.

Food Banks aren't run and owned by the state, so I'm not really sure that is a viable rule. The other side of the coin is that their smoking might well be the only taxation revenue these people are generating.

Problem is people blame the Conservative party. Its not their fault, they're just appealing to their voters in the same way Labour does, problem is both of them are representing more or less the same people - UK corporate interests, over the interests of the people.

Both New Labour and the Conservatives have equally been guilty of pandering to corporate interests over that of the population (New Labour more so, in my opinion). Especially the population that isn't going to vote for them.

I don't think they're any better or worse than Labour, they just have a different approach to maintaining the corporate state. The problem lies with the electorate in that we've bought into this idea that its Red good/bad Blue good/bad - and everyone else is a 'protest vote or vote wasted' as the system is rigged in their favour.

Whilst I don't particularly like the SNP or UKIP, or agree that their policies are even sustainable long term, there is generally a consensus that they are interested more in the electorates concerns than the mainstream parties.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 26 Apr 16 9.58am

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Now you mention it, I don't think smokers should have access to food banks. But if you think I'm out of order for saying it you're just supporting this system where you don't have to make such sacrifices.

The Tories are the bad guys, but it's not their fault everyone gets caught up in the net. If you think we came from a system of free healthcare and support for the unemployed to where we are now, where people choose not to work, something needs to change and the cuts along with the living wage are the closest we've ever been to reversing the abuse.

How many people choose not to work though, and how many cannot afford to work. Benefits have traditionally risen in line with inflation and the cost of living, where as wages are fulfilled through supply and demand. As there has been a glut of fulfilment of jobs filled first from students and part time work (low wage demands) and then from cheap migrant labour, we have a situation where the governments since introduction of the minimum wage have continually failed to increase it due to pressure from the corporate sector, whilst cheap abundant labour sources have meant that the supply / demand factor has meant wages have been surpassed by benefits (or notably people on benefits, who work part time within the law are actually better off than people working full time (especially if they have dependents).

You couldn't afford to rent a single bedroom flat around Reading if you were on minimum wage. Let alone pay the assorted bills, utilities etc.

The solution of reducing benefits won't actually make much difference, people respond to positive economic incentives in a capitalist market.

We need to end EU exploitation of its poorer nations and establish a minimum wage that makes working not just a means of subsistence, but a means of self improvement and escaping from subsistence and poverty.

Or we need to control the costs of living - Most notably the cost of renting (which are absurdly disproportionate in comparison to wages).

 


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