The Hillsborough Verdict

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gambler Kent 26 Apr 16 4.12pm
Originally posted by MKCPFC Did they sell more tickets than the capacity then ? If everbody there had a ticket there would have been enough room for everyone and there would have been no crush. Or is this logic flawed ? What absolute nonsense. Have you even bothered to investigate known facts?
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gambler

Kent 26 Apr 16 4.12pm

Originally posted by MKCPFC

Did they sell more tickets than the capacity then ?
If everbody there had a ticket there would have been enough room for everyone and there would have been no crush.
Or is this logic flawed ?

What absolute nonsense. Have you even bothered to investigate known facts?

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-TUX- Alphabettispaghetti 26 Apr 16 4.28pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Almost everyone responsible will have since retired anyhow. So can't now be held accountable? Time to move forward together.
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-TUX-

Alphabettispaghetti 26 Apr 16 4.28pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Almost everyone responsible will have since retired anyhow.

So can't now be held accountable?

Time to move forward together.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 26 Apr 16 5.01pm
It's a national disgrace that its taken this long to reach a conclusion. Lets hope justice is done. Attachment: tumblr_ma8qrfDj5X1qzu332o1_1280.jpg (71.06Kb)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 26 Apr 16 5.01pm

It's a national disgrace that its taken this long to reach a conclusion.

Lets hope justice is done.

Attachment: tumblr_ma8qrfDj5X1qzu332o1_1280.jpg (71.06Kb)

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.09pm
Originally posted by Catfish I think some blame should be directed at those who insisted on caging people in in the first place. What happened was more case a of too many people being let in at once. Instead of going through turnstyles, a few every 10 seconds, hundreds and a thousand or more went through the large gate opened within seconds. Then instead of being diverted to the pens across the stand, they all went for the central one behind the goal, and because it was all rushed, they thought they weren't getting to the terrace because they were going for it at the same time, when actually it was that and the fact it was already full. The pens in the corners were virtually empty where people who turned up last would usually go. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.09pm

Originally posted by Catfish

I think some blame should be directed at those who insisted on caging people in in the first place.

What happened was more case a of too many people being let in at once. Instead of going through turnstyles, a few every 10 seconds, hundreds and a thousand or more went through the large gate opened within seconds. Then instead of being diverted to the pens across the stand, they all went for the central one behind the goal, and because it was all rushed, they thought they weren't getting to the terrace because they were going for it at the same time, when actually it was that and the fact it was already full.

The pens in the corners were virtually empty where people who turned up last would usually go.

COYP

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.12pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston I don't doubt that there were fans without tickets. As others have said here, it was rampant at that time. Of course, that means that the police would have been aware of that too, and should have planned accordingly. They should have been filtering out the ticketless fans before they got into the Leppings Lane bottleneck outside the stadium. If they'd controlled that access point, there would not have been a crush at the turnstiles which would have meant that there was no need to open the emergency gate which would have avoided the crush into the central pens. It all comes back to negligent planning and negligent decision-making when the negligent plan failed comprehensively. Agreed. And if they didn't sell to capacity in terraced areas they could allow for people who always tried it on in those times. Every top club did. To claim otherwise is naive. It wasn't just football turnstyles fans tried and got away without paying. It was trains, tubes, buses, burger vans, service station and train station kiosks and shops. No doubt a lot of fans could go a whole day without spending a pound. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.12pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

I don't doubt that there were fans without tickets. As others have said here, it was rampant at that time.

Of course, that means that the police would have been aware of that too, and should have planned accordingly. They should have been filtering out the ticketless fans before they got into the Leppings Lane bottleneck outside the stadium. If they'd controlled that access point, there would not have been a crush at the turnstiles which would have meant that there was no need to open the emergency gate which would have avoided the crush into the central pens.

It all comes back to negligent planning and negligent decision-making when the negligent plan failed comprehensively.

Agreed. And if they didn't sell to capacity in terraced areas they could allow for people who always tried it on in those times. Every top club did. To claim otherwise is naive. It wasn't just football turnstyles fans tried and got away without paying. It was trains, tubes, buses, burger vans, service station and train station kiosks and shops. No doubt a lot of fans could go a whole day without spending a pound.

COYP

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.14pm
I also have an issue with blaming SWFC. Sheffield council passed them on Health and Safety. The FA fixtured the semi finals there. They didn't run the day or competition.They built the ground and updated it as much as other grounds. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.14pm

I also have an issue with blaming SWFC. Sheffield council passed them on Health and Safety. The FA fixtured the semi finals there. They didn't run the day or competition.They built the ground and updated it as much as other grounds.

COYP

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eagles2011 26 Apr 16 5.19pm
And saw on line "The Hillsborough Verdict Shows People Still Haven't Forgiven The Sun Even After 27 Years" Stan Collymore commented on Twitter "Time to shut the S down. They lied and contributed directly to a lying narrative causing 27 years of agony for families." John Aldridge "Got that rats name wrong it's Kelvin Mckenzie Lfc fans don't forget that name!!!!!!!!!complete and utter disgrace to humanity." Yet Kelvin Mackenzie still writes in the s despite saying he only apologised under duress from The Sun's owner, Rupert Murdoch. Some years after the tragedy he said: "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now."
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eagles2011

26 Apr 16 5.19pm

And saw on line

"The Hillsborough Verdict Shows People Still Haven't Forgiven The Sun Even After 27 Years"

Stan Collymore commented on Twitter "Time to shut the S** down. They lied and contributed directly to a lying narrative causing 27 years of agony for families."

John Aldridge "Got that rats name wrong it's Kelvin Mckenzie Lfc fans don't forget that name!!!!!!!!!complete and utter disgrace to humanity."

Yet Kelvin Mackenzie still writes in the s** despite saying he only apologised under duress from The Sun's owner, Rupert Murdoch.

Some years after the tragedy he said: "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now."

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.24pm
Originally posted by eagles2011 And saw on line "The Hillsborough Verdict Shows People Still Haven't Forgiven The Sun Even After 27 Years" Stan Collymore commented on Twitter "Time to shut the S down. They lied and contributed directly to a lying narrative causing 27 years of agony for families." John Aldridge "Got that rats name wrong it's Kelvin Mckenzie Lfc fans don't forget that name!!!!!!!!!complete and utter disgrace to humanity." Yet Kelvin Mackenzie still writes in the s despite saying he only apologised under duress from The Sun's owner, Rupert Murdoch. Some years after the tragedy he said: "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now." I remember in the replay at Old Trafford Forest scored an own goal at The Stretford End where the Liverpool fans were. What did Aldridge do? Forest player on his knees, Aldridge ran up to him and rubbed his hair like you'd do to a little boy and took the p1ss a few yards from the LFC fans. Nice bloke. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.24pm

Originally posted by eagles2011

And saw on line

"The Hillsborough Verdict Shows People Still Haven't Forgiven The Sun Even After 27 Years"

Stan Collymore commented on Twitter "Time to shut the S** down. They lied and contributed directly to a lying narrative causing 27 years of agony for families."

John Aldridge "Got that rats name wrong it's Kelvin Mckenzie Lfc fans don't forget that name!!!!!!!!!complete and utter disgrace to humanity."

Yet Kelvin Mackenzie still writes in the s** despite saying he only apologised under duress from The Sun's owner, Rupert Murdoch.

Some years after the tragedy he said: "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now."

I remember in the replay at Old Trafford Forest scored an own goal at The Stretford End where the Liverpool fans were. What did Aldridge do? Forest player on his knees, Aldridge ran up to him and rubbed his hair like you'd do to a little boy and took the p1ss a few yards from the LFC fans. Nice bloke.

COYP

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Seth On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 5.34pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman I also have an issue with blaming SWFC. Sheffield council passed them on Health and Safety. The FA fixtured the semi finals there. They didn't run the day or competition.They built the ground and updated it as much as other grounds. See kenbarr's post on the previous page for the answer to this. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 5.34pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

See kenbarr's post on the previous page for the answer to this.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.44pm
Originally posted by Seth See kenbarr's post on the previous page for the answer to this. Thanks. They were negligent as well then. Having no stewards at all was a huge error. I don't see how having some of the turnstyles closed was anything to do with segregagation. LFC had the whole of that stand and half of the 2 along the side of the pitch from the Leppings Lane end up to the halfway line. BS reason. I agree that the FA as well as SWFC should be held responsible for 8, 9 & 10. The FA closed certain turnstiles that Liverpool fans could have used. Fanny Adams claimed it was done to preserve segregation, which I believe helped cause the crush due to lack of turnstiles. There was also a lack of supervision of the tunnel leading to the central pens, which is the responsibility of the club and the police commander. SWFC rejected calls to reconfigure the Leppings Lane turnstiles and the barriers on the terrace claiming they weren't necessary. Both the club and their engineers refused to lower the capacity of the terrance. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 Apr 16 5.44pm

Originally posted by Seth

See kenbarr's post on the previous page for the answer to this.

Thanks. They were negligent as well then. Having no stewards at all was a huge error. I don't see how having some of the turnstyles closed was anything to do with segregagation. LFC had the whole of that stand and half of the 2 along the side of the pitch from the Leppings Lane end up to the halfway line. BS reason.

I agree that the FA as well as SWFC should be held responsible for 8, 9 & 10. The FA closed certain turnstiles that Liverpool fans could have used. Fanny Adams claimed it was done to preserve segregation, which I believe helped cause the crush due to lack of turnstiles. There was also a lack of supervision of the tunnel leading to the central pens, which is the responsibility of the club and the police commander. SWFC rejected calls to reconfigure the Leppings Lane turnstiles and the barriers on the terrace claiming they weren't necessary. Both the club and their engineers refused to lower the capacity of the terrance.

COYP

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Hoof Hearted 26 Apr 16 5.49pm
Originally posted by Seth The fact is that a jury of 11 people heard ALL the evidence, over two years, and concluded the fans were not to blame in any way. That should put an end once and for all to the disgraceful victim-blaming which has gone on since the disaster, but some people think they know better than the jury and will continue to smear the dead and injured. I choose to believe the jury, and support the families and survivors. It could've been any of us, as football fans, who were in those pens. We should remember the dead, and respect their families for the dignified and determined way they have sought truth and justice for their loved ones. Seth - it's not about smearing the dead and injured though. They were blameless innocent victims that arrived early, stood in the front of the middle pen and had the life crushed out of their bodies bless them. What Kenny is saying is that the Liverpool supporters that arrived at the turnstiles late, some without tickets, and many with a good drink inside them, caused the initial panic outside the ground which led to Duckenfield's disastrous decision to open the gates and let them all in. Without direction the majority opted for the middle pen and crushed those at the front by the pitch. It is ridiculous to imagine that Duckenfield would have just opened the gates for no reason if the Liverpool supporters outside had remained calm no? Anyway... whatever you and I think, a jury decided the outcome and we have to abide with it. For me the tragedy was a combination of factors that all could have been avoided with hindsight and thankfully we have learned our lessons and football grounds are more safer today. RIP The 96.
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Hoof Hearted 26 Apr 16 5.49pm

Originally posted by Seth

The fact is that a jury of 11 people heard ALL the evidence, over two years, and concluded the fans were not to blame in any way. That should put an end once and for all to the disgraceful victim-blaming which has gone on since the disaster, but some people think they know better than the jury and will continue to smear the dead and injured.

I choose to believe the jury, and support the families and survivors. It could've been any of us, as football fans, who were in those pens. We should remember the dead, and respect their families for the dignified and determined way they have sought truth and justice for their loved ones.

Seth - it's not about smearing the dead and injured though. They were blameless innocent victims that arrived early, stood in the front of the middle pen and had the life crushed out of their bodies bless them.

What Kenny is saying is that the Liverpool supporters that arrived at the turnstiles late, some without tickets, and many with a good drink inside them, caused the initial panic outside the ground which led to Duckenfield's disastrous decision to open the gates and let them all in. Without direction the majority opted for the middle pen and crushed those at the front by the pitch.

It is ridiculous to imagine that Duckenfield would have just opened the gates for no reason if the Liverpool supporters outside had remained calm no?

Anyway... whatever you and I think, a jury decided the outcome and we have to abide with it.

For me the tragedy was a combination of factors that all could have been avoided with hindsight and thankfully we have learned our lessons and football grounds are more safer today.

RIP The 96.

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Seth On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 5.58pm
Originally posted by Hoof Hearted Seth - it's not about smearing the dead and injured though. They were blameless innocent victims that arrived early, stood in the front of the middle pen and had the life crushed out of their bodies bless them. What Kenny is saying is that the Liverpool supporters that arrived at the turnstiles late, some without tickets, and many with a good drink inside them, caused the initial panic outside the ground which led to Duckenfield's disastrous decision to open the gates and let them all in. Without direction the majority opted for the middle pen and crushed those at the front by the pitch. It is ridiculous to imagine that Duckenfield would have just opened the gates for no reason if the Liverpool supporters outside had remained calm no? Anyway... whatever you and I think, a jury decided the outcome and we have to abide with it. For me the tragedy was a combination of factors that all could have been avoided with hindsight and thankfully we have learned our lessons and football grounds are more safer today. RIP The 96. Hoof we've discussed this before and I know you've previously backed up the allegation that drunk ticketless fans caused the crush, but that has been wholly repudiated by the jury, who unlike us, listened to two years of evidence, including from the police who continued to peddle that line. Yes it was a combination of factors but the one which was put out by the police, government and media at the time, that fans were to blame, has been disproved by the evidence. Like you say, we should abide by that verdict and remove the cloud of suspicion and innuendo which has hung over the survivors and families for 27 years, and allow them to finally grieve and move on with their lives. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 5.58pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

It is ridiculous to imagine that Duckenfield would have just opened the gates for no reason if the Liverpool supporters outside had remained calm no?

Anyway... whatever you and I think, a jury decided the outcome and we have to abide with it.

For me the tragedy was a combination of factors that all could have been avoided with hindsight and thankfully we have learned our lessons and football grounds are more safer today.

RIP The 96.

Hoof we've discussed this before and I know you've previously backed up the allegation that drunk ticketless fans caused the crush, but that has been wholly repudiated by the jury, who unlike us, listened to two years of evidence, including from the police who continued to peddle that line.

Yes it was a combination of factors but the one which was put out by the police, government and media at the time, that fans were to blame, has been disproved by the evidence. Like you say, we should abide by that verdict and remove the cloud of suspicion and innuendo which has hung over the survivors and families for 27 years, and allow them to finally grieve and move on with their lives.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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