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April 18 2024 2.39pm

Who is to blame?

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 13 Dec 19 6.43pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

For what I expect you to ask and that, of course, depends on your perspective.

If you voted Tory then right now maybe you feel only celebrations are in order, but I am not so sure. Since the size of the majority was known just about everyone has suggested this means that Johnson's new government can sideline the ERG, ignore Farage and pursue a much softer Brexit deal. Something they must do if they stand any chance of reaching a deal in 12 months. Along with the fact that many of their new MPs come from constituencies with very different priorities to their southern heartlands this could well mean a move to the centre is about to happen, something seemingly confirmed today by Johnson himself.

For a hardline Brexiteer this has to be a disaster. Who is to blame? Farage is! If he hadn't tried (and succeeded) to spike the LibDems in the south by standing down all those candidates, the Tory majority would have been much smaller, and he might even have had a handful of his own MPs. With a smaller majority Johnson would need the ERG onside and his room for maneuver would be much less. If we now get a soft Brexit then you can blame Farage.

If you are a remainer then the blame falls on several heads. Cameron for his miscalculation but mostly on Corbyn for choosing to stay as Labour leader when it was obvious that he is so unpopular that failure was inevitable. The opportunity existed a few months ago to remove Johnson, install a temporary PM and a cross party government of national unity with the sole purpose of holding a confirmatory vote on whether the country wanted the "deal" or now wanted to remain. It only required Corbyn to agree and then stand aside. His stubbornness is to blame for the fact that although even with this landslide result more people voted for a party that wanted such a vote than did not, we still don't get one.

The other thing to blame is our out of date voting system which is no longer fit for purpose. Many, if not most, people seem to have voted against something rather than for it. This isn't healthy in a democracy. We need people to vote for what they want and for that to be proportionately represented in the Parliament so that compromises can be reached by our representatives.

This is a watershed moment in the UK's political life. A united Ireland now looks a racing certainty to me in the next 10 years. Scotland looks less certain but will be a continuing thorn.

I am not though without hope. The coming days and weeks will tell a lot. If Johnson reshuffles and sends the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel to the back benches then he will have made a good start. I hope Labour totally collapses and that a new centre left party emerges, funded by both more moderate unions, and socially responsible wealthy citizens and businesses. Whether the current LibDems provide the foundations for such a development is an open question, given the failed attempt by the 2 Davids almost 40 years ago but we need such a party now as never before. There are many wonderful politicians who would immediately fit into such a party. All they need is the structure.

 


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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 13 Dec 19 7.45pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

For what I expect you to ask and that, of course, depends on your perspective.

If you voted Tory then right now maybe you feel only celebrations are in order, but I am not so sure. Since the size of the majority was known just about everyone has suggested this means that Johnson's new government can sideline the ERG, ignore Farage and pursue a much softer Brexit deal. Something they must do if they stand any chance of reaching a deal in 12 months. Along with the fact that many of their new MPs come from constituencies with very different priorities to their southern heartlands this could well mean a move to the centre is about to happen, something seemingly confirmed today by Johnson himself.

For a hardline Brexiteer this has to be a disaster. Who is to blame? Farage is! If he hadn't tried (and succeeded) to spike the LibDems in the south by standing down all those candidates, the Tory majority would have been much smaller, and he might even have had a handful of his own MPs. With a smaller majority Johnson would need the ERG onside and his room for maneuver would be much less. If we now get a soft Brexit then you can blame Farage.

If you are a remainer then the blame falls on several heads. Cameron for his miscalculation but mostly on Corbyn for choosing to stay as Labour leader when it was obvious that he is so unpopular that failure was inevitable. The opportunity existed a few months ago to remove Johnson, install a temporary PM and a cross party government of national unity with the sole purpose of holding a confirmatory vote on whether the country wanted the "deal" or now wanted to remain. It only required Corbyn to agree and then stand aside. His stubbornness is to blame for the fact that although even with this landslide result more people voted for a party that wanted such a vote than did not, we still don't get one.

The other thing to blame is our out of date voting system which is no longer fit for purpose. Many, if not most, people seem to have voted against something rather than for it. This isn't healthy in a democracy. We need people to vote for what they want and for that to be proportionately represented in the Parliament so that compromises can be reached by our representatives.

This is a watershed moment in the UK's political life. A united Ireland now looks a racing certainty to me in the next 10 years. Scotland looks less certain but will be a continuing thorn.

I am not though without hope. The coming days and weeks will tell a lot. If Johnson reshuffles and sends the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel to the back benches then he will have made a good start. I hope Labour totally collapses and that a new centre left party emerges, funded by both more moderate unions, and socially responsible wealthy citizens and businesses. Whether the current LibDems provide the foundations for such a development is an open question, given the failed attempt by the 2 Davids almost 40 years ago but we need such a party now as never before. There are many wonderful politicians who would immediately fit into such a party. All they need is the structure.

I did vote for what I wanted.
Not labour.
Job done.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 13 Dec 19 8.03pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Eve.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 13 Dec 19 8.35pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

I like to think I played a tiny part. Plenty of old people near where I live and they all welcome the chance for me to help them fill in their postal votes. They don't get much company and I like to think I brightened up their day along with helping kick Corbyn into touch.

I doubt it was more than 35. 40 at most. But every little helps.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 13 Dec 19 9.10pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

For what I expect you to ask and that, of course, depends on your perspective.

If you voted Tory then right now maybe you feel only celebrations are in order, but I am not so sure. Since the size of the majority was known just about everyone has suggested this means that Johnson's new government can sideline the ERG, ignore Farage and pursue a much softer Brexit deal. Something they must do if they stand any chance of reaching a deal in 12 months. Along with the fact that many of their new MPs come from constituencies with very different priorities to their southern heartlands this could well mean a move to the centre is about to happen, something seemingly confirmed today by Johnson himself.

For a hardline Brexiteer this has to be a disaster. Who is to blame? Farage is! If he hadn't tried (and succeeded) to spike the LibDems in the south by standing down all those candidates, the Tory majority would have been much smaller, and he might even have had a handful of his own MPs. With a smaller majority Johnson would need the ERG onside and his room for maneuver would be much less. If we now get a soft Brexit then you can blame Farage.

If you are a remainer then the blame falls on several heads. Cameron for his miscalculation but mostly on Corbyn for choosing to stay as Labour leader when it was obvious that he is so unpopular that failure was inevitable. The opportunity existed a few months ago to remove Johnson, install a temporary PM and a cross party government of national unity with the sole purpose of holding a confirmatory vote on whether the country wanted the "deal" or now wanted to remain. It only required Corbyn to agree and then stand aside. His stubbornness is to blame for the fact that although even with this landslide result more people voted for a party that wanted such a vote than did not, we still don't get one.

The other thing to blame is our out of date voting system which is no longer fit for purpose. Many, if not most, people seem to have voted against something rather than for it. This isn't healthy in a democracy. We need people to vote for what they want and for that to be proportionately represented in the Parliament so that compromises can be reached by our representatives.

This is a watershed moment in the UK's political life. A united Ireland now looks a racing certainty to me in the next 10 years. Scotland looks less certain but will be a continuing thorn.

I am not though without hope. The coming days and weeks will tell a lot. If Johnson reshuffles and sends the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel to the back benches then he will have made a good start. I hope Labour totally collapses and that a new centre left party emerges, funded by both more moderate unions, and socially responsible wealthy citizens and businesses. Whether the current LibDems provide the foundations for such a development is an open question, given the failed attempt by the 2 Davids almost 40 years ago but we need such a party now as never before. There are many wonderful politicians who would immediately fit into such a party. All they need is the structure.

I agree with your point that tactical voting is negative I vote for not to stop someone else. However first past the post is preferable to PR because PR allows the minority parties to wield power. We've already had the SNP and others laying out their demands in the event of a hung parliament. Why should a party like the Greens with 3% of the vote dictate to the rest of us.

I don't agree a United Ireland in 10 years is inevitable but if it does happen this is nothing to do with Brexit. The demographics have been moving that way for decades personally I think it will still be decades.

And I see that on Brexit you are still arguing for another bite of the cherry. How many more votes do we need to have. One referendum and 2 GE.

 


One more point

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 13 Dec 19 9.29pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Jews. Obviously.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 13 Dec 19 9.53pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

I agree with your point that tactical voting is negative I vote for not to stop someone else. However first past the post is preferable to PR because PR allows the minority parties to wield power. We've already had the SNP and others laying out their demands in the event of a hung parliament. Why should a party like the Greens with 3% of the vote dictate to the rest of us.

I don't agree a United Ireland in 10 years is inevitable but if it does happen this is nothing to do with Brexit. The demographics have been moving that way for decades personally I think it will still be decades.

And I see that on Brexit you are still arguing for another bite of the cherry. How many more votes do we need to have. One referendum and 2 GE.

PR doesn't allow minority parties to hold power at all. It just allows those who support them to be fairly represented

The Greens with 3% of the vote wouldn't dictate anything under a PR system. They would though be represented so their votes would matter. More relevantly the Brexit Party got 2% of the vote, even after committing political suicide, but no seats at all.

Of course as an EU advocate I don't want us to exit. Nor do a majority of our fellow citizens, now they have seen what the implications are. Do you seriously think that if in 2016 we had voted to remain that would have shut up the likes of Farage?

No. A battle has been lost but the war is far from over. A soft Brexit will make it much easier to re-enter when the mood of the country changes. As it surely will. Only when is in doubt and not if.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 13 Dec 19 9.58pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

The Weather. It was pissing down. Apparently young people won't go out in it because it is full of pollution and will burn their skin. Really we should hold the vote again when the weather is better. In the summer. When all the old people have died.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 13 Dec 19 10.10pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

To answer the thread title Who is to Blame?

The answer is simple the parties that lost need to think about their policies and why they failed to convince the electorate.

Andrew Neill had a go at Momentum last night their man kept saying "our policies are popular (in their echo chamber sure), we need to work on the message". Neil quite rightly pointed out that maybe it wasn't the message that the voters didn't like and they should at least consider the possibility that the policies were an issue.

This was the same thinking that arose after the referendum if all these people do is blame the voters for not getting the message they will continue to make the same mistakes.

 


One more point

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 13 Dec 19 10.50pm Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

Mossad.
Probably.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 13 Dec 19 10.52pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

Jews. Obviously.

It's those cotton picking pesky Jews again, Corbyn would have gotten away with it to.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 13 Dec 19 10.58pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

The Weather. It was pissing down. Apparently young people won't go out in it because it is full of pollution and will burn their skin. Really we should hold the vote again when the weather is better. In the summer. When all the old people have died.

Yeah, old people are the worst....look like animated corpses some of them, turning up and voting and stealing away the youth's future....How very dare they! Half of them probably didn't know which box they had ticked anyway.
When age has reduced your main hobbies to dibbling and farting ban the feckers.

Or in other words, thank god for our greysters.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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