Israel / Palestine

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Stirlingsays 20 Jul 14 8.23pm
Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 4.36pm No of course not. But bombing the bejeebers out of them is more likely to strengthen resolve. The way forward, as was in Ireland, is through meaningful dialogue. Neither side seems to want to budge. The IRA and Hamas have nothing like comparable aims. The IRA were not seeking to destroy Britain. The IRA did not have in their constitution a declaration that any cease firs or truce is only a necessary step towards Israel's demise. Israel and the west are right not to negotiate with Hamas. Fatah is the only show in town. Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.24pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

20 Jul 14 8.23pm

Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 4.36pm

No of course not. But bombing the bejeebers out of them is more likely to strengthen resolve.
The way forward, as was in Ireland, is through meaningful dialogue. Neither side seems to want to budge.

The IRA and Hamas have nothing like comparable aims.

The IRA were not seeking to destroy Britain. The IRA did not have in their constitution a declaration that any cease firs or truce is only a necessary step towards Israel's demise.

Israel and the west are right not to negotiate with Hamas.

Fatah is the only show in town.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.24pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.25pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Jul 2014 8.18pm Quote Palacetinian at 20 Jul 2014 4.58pm Dialogue with Hamas is needed - Nick is right - not the massacre currently taking place. Israel helped to create Hamas as an opposition to secular leader Yasser Arafat who they didn't want to deal with until 1993 - this article gives some background. [Link] Yeah Nick is right.....You couldn't be biased about that could you? You know considering your Hol name and all that. Tell me, what is in it for Israel with having a dialogue with Hamas? Hamas's constitution makes it clear that it will accept nothing but the wiping of Israel from the map. All ceasefires or truces are but stop gaps to that aim. All attempts to get them to change this have failed....Their leader calls recognizing Israel a 'red line'. Tell me, what on earth could Israel gain from dialogue with Hamas? Hamas seeks to wipe them out. Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.19pm) So from this, one comes to the opinion that you think the only option for Israel is to bomb Gaza into submission, kill children playing on beaches and destroy hospitals etc etc. Nice.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.25pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Jul 2014 8.18pm

Quote Palacetinian at 20 Jul 2014 4.58pm

Dialogue with Hamas is needed - Nick is right - not the massacre currently taking place. Israel helped to create Hamas as an opposition to secular leader Yasser Arafat who they didn't want to deal with until 1993 - this article gives some background.

[Link]

Yeah Nick is right.....You couldn't be biased about that could you? You know considering your Hol name and all that.

Tell me, what is in it for Israel with having a dialogue with Hamas?

Hamas's constitution makes it clear that it will accept nothing but the wiping of Israel from the map. All ceasefires or truces are but stop gaps to that aim.

All attempts to get them to change this have failed....Their leader calls recognizing Israel a 'red line'.

Tell me, what on earth could Israel gain from dialogue with Hamas?

Hamas seeks to wipe them out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.19pm)

So from this, one comes to the opinion that you think the only option for Israel is to bomb Gaza into submission, kill children playing on beaches and destroy hospitals etc etc.
Nice.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.27pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Jul 2014 8.23pm Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 4.36pm No of course not. But bombing the bejeebers out of them is more likely to strengthen resolve. The way forward, as was in Ireland, is through meaningful dialogue. Neither side seems to want to budge. The IRA and Hamas have nothing like comparable aims. The IRA were not seeking to destroy Britain. The IRA did not have in their constitution a declaration that any cease firs or truce is only a necessary step towards Israel's demise. Israel and the west are right not to negotiate with Hamas. Fatah is the only show in town. Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.24pm) Call me a cynic in me old age, but I don't actually think it would make a difference to the current lot in power in Israel who was in charge in Palestine. They want their holy land.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.27pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Jul 2014 8.23pm

Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 4.36pm

No of course not. But bombing the bejeebers out of them is more likely to strengthen resolve.
The way forward, as was in Ireland, is through meaningful dialogue. Neither side seems to want to budge.

The IRA and Hamas have nothing like comparable aims.

The IRA were not seeking to destroy Britain. The IRA did not have in their constitution a declaration that any cease firs or truce is only a necessary step towards Israel's demise.

Israel and the west are right not to negotiate with Hamas.

Fatah is the only show in town.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.24pm)

Call me a cynic in me old age, but I don't actually think it would make a difference to the current lot in power in Israel who was in charge in Palestine. They want their holy land.

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Stirlingsays 20 Jul 14 8.32pm
Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.25pm So from this, one comes to the opinion that you think the only option for Israel is to bomb Gaza into submission, kill children playing on beaches and destroy hospitals etc etc. Nice. Just because I bulk at you defending Hamas's whole approach and tactics doesn't mean I'm happy about what's happening. I've already stated that I'm against this action. It's pointless. It is just more blood letting to strengthen the hard men on both sides. However, I'm not against a tough stance against Hamas. Targeting Hamas or blockading certain things. I'm a supporter of an eventual two state solution......But this can never happen with Hamas or the right in power in Israel. It seems that what is happening will continue to happen until both populations are ready to vote in people willing to try for genuine peace. If Hamas ever allow elections again. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

20 Jul 14 8.32pm

Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.25pm

So from this, one comes to the opinion that you think the only option for Israel is to bomb Gaza into submission, kill children playing on beaches and destroy hospitals etc etc.
Nice.

Just because I bulk at you defending Hamas's whole approach and tactics doesn't mean I'm happy about what's happening.

I've already stated that I'm against this action. It's pointless. It is just more blood letting to strengthen the hard men on both sides.

However, I'm not against a tough stance against Hamas. Targeting Hamas or blockading certain things.

I'm a supporter of an eventual two state solution......But this can never happen with Hamas or the right in power in Israel.

It seems that what is happening will continue to happen until both populations are ready to vote in people willing to try for genuine peace.

If Hamas ever allow elections again.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 20 Jul 14 8.36pm
Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.27pm Call me a cynic in me old age, but I don't actually think it would make a difference to the current lot in power in Israel who was in charge in Palestine. They want their holy land. Sure........Though Fatah and Israel aren't fighting you know...Haven't for years. But that country you dislike so much.....It happens to hold elections. Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.38pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

20 Jul 14 8.36pm

Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.27pm

Call me a cynic in me old age, but I don't actually think it would make a difference to the current lot in power in Israel who was in charge in Palestine. They want their holy land.

Sure........Though Fatah and Israel aren't fighting you know...Haven't for years.

But that country you dislike so much.....It happens to hold elections.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.38pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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coulsdoneagle London 20 Jul 14 8.37pm
Obviously dialogue and a less bloody solution is the dream here, but I fear there is little point in trying to talk to Hamas when part of their founding ideology is to eventually wipe out the state of Israel. When they talk about a ceasefire, they talk about it as if it's a short term thing saying basically "we could have a few years of peace, if we get a Palestinian state along the 1967 border lines". 1. This is never going to be agreed with by Israel who would have to give up Jerusalem 2. The ceasefire would end the moment Hamas believed they had the strength to attack their neighbouring Jewish state. They (Hamas) are treating this not as a civic dispute but a Jihad against Judaism, that's why it is a problem and however much we all despise the collateral damage Hamas must be destroyed. Whether it's possible, I doubt. Edited by coulsdoneagle (20 Jul 2014 8.38pm)
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coulsdoneagle

London 20 Jul 14 8.37pm

Obviously dialogue and a less bloody solution is the dream here, but I fear there is little point in trying to talk to Hamas when part of their founding ideology is to eventually wipe out the state of Israel. When they talk about a ceasefire, they talk about it as if it's a short term thing saying basically "we could have a few years of peace, if we get a Palestinian state along the 1967 border lines".

1. This is never going to be agreed with by Israel who would have to give up Jerusalem
2. The ceasefire would end the moment Hamas believed they had the strength to attack their neighbouring Jewish state.

They (Hamas) are treating this not as a civic dispute but a Jihad against Judaism, that's why it is a problem and however much we all despise the collateral damage Hamas must be destroyed.
Whether it's possible, I doubt.

Edited by coulsdoneagle (20 Jul 2014 8.38pm)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.42pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Jul 2014 8.36pm But that country you dislike so much.....It happens to hold elections. Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.38pm) Yes you did. At 8.38 Edited by nickgusset (20 Jul 2014 8.50pm)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.42pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Jul 2014 8.36pm

But that country you dislike so much.....It happens to hold elections.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2014 8.38pm)

Yes you did. At 8.38

Edited by nickgusset (20 Jul 2014 8.50pm)

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legaleagle 20 Jul 14 8.44pm
See link below.The relevance to Gaza is at the end. The writer queries whether the killing of the 3 Israeli youths was perhaps down to ISIS to set in chain the current horror and take the spotlight off ISIS' offensive in Syria.300 plus killed in ISIS-related fighting in the past few days. I had read previously that the rogue cell that allegedly killed the three Israeli youths had links with ISIS, but then again, I had also read that Mossad was behind ISIS originally! The Gazan Ministry of the Interior advice (if accurate) reproduced in the comments below the article is interesting. [Link] Edited by legaleagle (20 Jul 2014 8.45pm) Edited by legaleagle (20 Jul 2014 9.09pm) Edited by legaleagle (20 Jul 2014 9.09pm)
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legaleagle

20 Jul 14 8.44pm

See link below.The relevance to Gaza is at the end. The writer queries whether the killing of the 3 Israeli youths was perhaps down to ISIS to set in chain the current horror and take the spotlight off ISIS' offensive in Syria.300 plus killed in ISIS-related fighting in the past few days. I had read previously that the rogue cell that allegedly killed the three Israeli youths had links with ISIS, but then again, I had also read that Mossad was behind ISIS originally!

The Gazan Ministry of the Interior advice (if accurate) reproduced in the comments below the article is interesting.

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (20 Jul 2014 8.45pm)

Edited by legaleagle (20 Jul 2014 9.09pm)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.45pm
Quote coulsdoneagle at 20 Jul 2014 8.37pm Obviously dialogue and a less bloody solution is the dream here, but I fear there is little point in trying to talk to Hamas when part of their founding ideology is to eventually wipe out the state of Israel. When they talk about a ceasefire, they talk about it as if it's a short term thing saying basically "we could have a few years of peace, if we get a Palestinian state along the 1967 border lines". 1. This is never going to be agreed with by Israel who would have to give up Jerusalem 2. The ceasefire would end the moment Hamas believed they had the strength to attack their neighbouring Jewish state. They (Hamas) are treating this not as a civic dispute but a Jihad against Judaism, that's why it is a problem and however much we all despise the collateral damage Hamas must be destroyed. Whether it's possible, I doubt. Edited by coulsdoneagle (20 Jul 2014 8.38pm) Which makes one wonder why Israel supported them previously if this has been their intention.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.45pm

Quote coulsdoneagle at 20 Jul 2014 8.37pm

Edited by coulsdoneagle (20 Jul 2014 8.38pm)

Which makes one wonder why Israel supported them previously if this has been their intention.

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Stirlingsays 20 Jul 14 8.47pm
Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.42pm Putting words in my mouth, which loses you all credibility. I haven't said I dislike Israel. What I have said is I do think their government's actions in Gaza is inhumane, barbaric, disproportionate and wrong. Edited by nickgusset (20 Jul 2014 8.43pm) How does it lose me credibility I didn't claim you said it? It's my opinion of your attitude. Am I allowed to have an opinion? I based it upon you supporting Hamas killing Jews.....I regarded that as a rather big hint. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

20 Jul 14 8.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.42pm

Putting words in my mouth, which loses you all credibility. I haven't said I dislike Israel. What I have said is I do think their government's actions in Gaza is inhumane, barbaric, disproportionate and wrong.

Edited by nickgusset (20 Jul 2014 8.43pm)

How does it lose me credibility I didn't claim you said it?

It's my opinion of your attitude. Am I allowed to have an opinion?

I based it upon you supporting Hamas killing Jews.....I regarded that as a rather big hint.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 20 Jul 14 8.48pm
Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.45pm Which makes one wonder why Israel supported them previously if this has been their intention. Where is the evidence they supported the creation of Hamas we have now? 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

20 Jul 14 8.48pm

Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.45pm

Which makes one wonder why Israel supported them previously if this has been their intention.

Where is the evidence they supported the creation of Hamas we have now?

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.53pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Jul 2014 8.47pm Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.42pm Putting words in my mouth, which loses you all credibility. I haven't said I dislike Israel. What I have said is I do think their government's actions in Gaza is inhumane, barbaric, disproportionate and wrong. Edited by nickgusset (20 Jul 2014 8.43pm) How does it lose me credibility I didn't claim you said it? It's my opinion of your attitude. Am I allowed to have an opinion? I based it upon you supporting Hamas killing Jews.....I regarded that as a rather big hint. You wrote 'that country you hate so much' You have also now said I support Hamas killing Jews. Where? Are you posting under 2 user names? Reveal yourself.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 20 Jul 14 8.53pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Jul 2014 8.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 20 Jul 2014 8.42pm

Edited by nickgusset (20 Jul 2014 8.43pm)

How does it lose me credibility I didn't claim you said it?

It's my opinion of your attitude. Am I allowed to have an opinion?

I based it upon you supporting Hamas killing Jews.....I regarded that as a rather big hint.

You wrote 'that country you hate so much'
You have also now said I support Hamas killing Jews. Where?
Are you posting under 2 user names? Reveal yourself.

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