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Rolf Harris

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View Cucking Funt's Profile Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 06 Jul 14 10.19am Send a Private Message to Cucking Funt Add Cucking Funt as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Jul 2014 9.57am

Quote Moose at 05 Jul 2014 3.34pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Jul 2014 3.05pm

Quote The Chaser1 at 04 Jul 2014 1.36pm

He is a lucky nonce it should've been 10 or more years.

He's lucky that they were historic offences, as the judge points out in summing up, and so subject to sentences related to when the offences were carried out.

The sentence has been referred to the Attorney General to assess it suitability - so like Hall he could face a longer sentence, but that could not be issued by the Judge directly.


Was it not the judge who decided to run some of the sentences concurrently? The total of all the sentences was 11 years which I'd have said was far more appropriate.


Edited by Moose (05 Jul 2014 3.35pm)

Indeed, but the sentence has to be proportionate to those dealt out to others who've committed similar crimes of a roughly similar nature. You can't just decide to hand down 11 years, because you can. You have to present a rational basis for that (otherwise you'll have a successful appeal).

Its the power of the Attorney General to decide whether the sentence was too lenient or too severe.

Reading the judges summary there are indicators as to why the sentence wasn't the maximum possible 11 years.


Edited by jamiemartin721 (06 Jul 2014 9.58am)


The Attorney General can only make the decision to refer the case to the Appeal Court in the hope of seeing a longer sentence. The decision still remains with the judge or judges.

 


Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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View Moose's Profile Moose Flag In the sewer pipe... 06 Jul 14 10.02pm Send a Private Message to Moose Add Moose as a friend

Quote Farawayeagle at 06 Jul 2014 2.12am

Quote Moose at 05 Jul 2014 3.34pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Jul 2014 3.05pm

Quote The Chaser1 at 04 Jul 2014 1.36pm

He is a lucky nonce it should've been 10 or more years.

He's lucky that they were historic offences, as the judge points out in summing up, and so subject to sentences related to when the offences were carried out.

The sentence has been referred to the Attorney General to assess it suitability - so like Hall he could face a longer sentence, but that could not be issued by the Judge directly.


Was it not the judge who decided to run some of the sentences concurrently? The total of all the sentences was 11 years which I'd have said was far more appropriate.


Edited by Moose (05 Jul 2014 3.35pm)

With due respect Moose.
I don't understand this desire to double the cost to the taxpayer. As I alluded to before official cost for keeping a prisoner in a low security jail is estimated at 20,000 to 25,000 pounds. So 11 years would be hitting a quarter of a million. I can think of more worthy ways in society to spend tax money. He's going to jail for probably 3 years -- he is a social and professional pariah and he most probably will get hit with a class action for damages. How vindictive does a society need to be to extract what appears from some comments to be an odd reflected revenge on behalf of the victims.

i come at this from the point of view of someone who was sexually assaulted a couple of times when I was 10 years old. (52 years ago) I didn't want revenge. In the end I wanted the guy to get help and I warned friends not to end up alone with him. I also spoke to a policeman about him. In those days seemed the right way to do it. The police in my town were still the friendly cop on the beat. I am confidant the police kept a watchful eye on him. He never came near me again. He died early in life I was told.

Even now, if he were alive, I wouldn't want him locked away forever, or to die in jail as some have been suggesting about Harris on the twitter sphere. And unlike Rolf Harris my molester had not contributed positively in other ways to society. He was just a sad troubled human being.

I have difficulty relating to the victims who say their life was ruined by such an encounter. I think it is more about the victim's character -- whether they can cope with it. That is not to point blame at these particular victims. I don't know them. I am talking in general.

What happened to me was worse than a few of the counts described in the Harris case but I went on to be a successful person in my life with two great kids and in fact I have often been the person others confide in and seek advice from with their life troubles. So it doesn't necessarily destroy your life.


I don't know if Harris is guilty or not. The events are so long ago -- so it is very much a he said, she said. The jury believed the "She saids". So that is the verdict. If something good is to come out of this then it should be learning positive lessons for the future.

I think victims should go to the police immediately. (Just my opinion) Not decades later.
I'm sure my molester's activity was curtailed after I spoke to the police because I'm absolutely sure they had a word in his shell like.

If Harris's activities with minors are to be believed then could some of the parents have acted quicker. It took 15 years for the parent who received the letter to give it to the police.

We now have a stack of women putting their hand up to say he touched them as adults and there is talk of class action suits to get money from his estate. The report is that he was known in the entertainment industry as a groper of attractive women. But it seems all people did was avoid him or just describe him to their colleagues as an octopus.

I know it might have been difficult in those days to get the powers that be to do something as a blind eye was often turned to what has been described as "flirtatious, touchy feely behaviour." But somebody could have tried.

Any way just some thoughts to consider.

Thanks for your well-reasoned post Marc, and respect to you for being so candid.

Reading the summing up of the judge, however, I do think that Rolf Harris was slightly more than your average groper - certainly with respect to his daughter's friend it would seem as though he groomed her over a number of years culminating in some fairly serious abuse. Whilst I do acknowledge that some people have pederasty hard wired into them, my opinion is that Rolf Harris did not, which makes him an opportunist sex abuser. The tax money is not important to me - it's more about how predatory child abusers are seen to be punished for their crimes in this country - and I don't feel that Rolf Harris's sentence was long enough.

 


Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.

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View Farawayeagle's Profile Farawayeagle Flag Sydney 07 Jul 14 12.39am Send a Private Message to Farawayeagle Add Farawayeagle as a friend

Quote Moose at 06 Jul 2014 10.02pm

Quote Farawayeagle at 06 Jul 2014 2.12am

Quote Moose at 05 Jul 2014 3.34pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Jul 2014 3.05pm

Quote The Chaser1 at 04 Jul 2014 1.36pm

He is a lucky nonce it should've been 10 or more years.

He's lucky that they were historic offences, as the judge points out in summing up, and so subject to sentences related to when the offences were carried out.

The sentence has been referred to the Attorney General to assess it suitability - so like Hall he could face a longer sentence, but that could not be issued by the Judge directly.


Was it not the judge who decided to run some of the sentences concurrently? The total of all the sentences was 11 years which I'd have said was far more appropriate.


Edited by Moose (05 Jul 2014 3.35pm)

With due respect Moose.
I don't understand this desire to double the cost to the taxpayer. As I alluded to before official cost for keeping a prisoner in a low security jail is estimated at 20,000 to 25,000 pounds. So 11 years would be hitting a quarter of a million. I can think of more worthy ways in society to spend tax money. He's going to jail for probably 3 years -- he is a social and professional pariah and he most probably will get hit with a class action for damages. How vindictive does a society need to be to extract what appears from some comments to be an odd reflected revenge on behalf of the victims.

i come at this from the point of view of someone who was sexually assaulted a couple of times when I was 10 years old. (52 years ago) I didn't want revenge. In the end I wanted the guy to get help and I warned friends not to end up alone with him. I also spoke to a policeman about him. In those days seemed the right way to do it. The police in my town were still the friendly cop on the beat. I am confidant the police kept a watchful eye on him. He never came near me again. He died early in life I was told.

Even now, if he were alive, I wouldn't want him locked away forever, or to die in jail as some have been suggesting about Harris on the twitter sphere. And unlike Rolf Harris my molester had not contributed positively in other ways to society. He was just a sad troubled human being.

I have difficulty relating to the victims who say their life was ruined by such an encounter. I think it is more about the victim's character -- whether they can cope with it. That is not to point blame at these particular victims. I don't know them. I am talking in general.

What happened to me was worse than a few of the counts described in the Harris case but I went on to be a successful person in my life with two great kids and in fact I have often been the person others confide in and seek advice from with their life troubles. So it doesn't necessarily destroy your life.


I don't know if Harris is guilty or not. The events are so long ago -- so it is very much a he said, she said. The jury believed the "She saids". So that is the verdict. If something good is to come out of this then it should be learning positive lessons for the future.

I think victims should go to the police immediately. (Just my opinion) Not decades later.
I'm sure my molester's activity was curtailed after I spoke to the police because I'm absolutely sure they had a word in his shell like.

If Harris's activities with minors are to be believed then could some of the parents have acted quicker. It took 15 years for the parent who received the letter to give it to the police.

We now have a stack of women putting their hand up to say he touched them as adults and there is talk of class action suits to get money from his estate. The report is that he was known in the entertainment industry as a groper of attractive women. But it seems all people did was avoid him or just describe him to their colleagues as an octopus.

I know it might have been difficult in those days to get the powers that be to do something as a blind eye was often turned to what has been described as "flirtatious, touchy feely behaviour." But somebody could have tried.

Any way just some thoughts to consider.

Thanks for your well-reasoned post Marc, and respect to you for being so candid.

Reading the summing up of the judge, however, I do think that Rolf Harris was slightly more than your average groper - certainly with respect to his daughter's friend it would seem as though he groomed her over a number of years culminating in some fairly serious abuse. Whilst I do acknowledge that some people have pederasty hard wired into them, my opinion is that Rolf Harris did not, which makes him an opportunist sex abuser. The tax money is not important to me - it's more about how predatory child abusers are seen to be punished for their crimes in this country - and I don't feel that Rolf Harris's sentence was long enough.

I can understand where you're coming from. I would agree with you
that he appears to have been an opportunist sex abuser/groper -- however you want to term it. But, it seems clear from the accusers now coming forward his "victims" were mainly attractive young or middle aged women.

I have reservations over the early accusations in relation to his daughter's friend. There was no corroboration of her (pre legal age) story and we know that the affair broke up in an acrimonious way. Had I been on the jury I would have been uncomfortable just accepting it as fact.

None of the other underage counts were corroborated. The jury just believed the accusers. That's not to say they didn't happen but if I were convicted on this type of uncorroborated "evidence". -- I would be seriously unhappy.

I was in London in the seventies and eighties and spent a fair bit of time in and around the entertainment/rock world. I think from my observations at the time -- Harris was probably one of hundreds of well known musos and actors who took advantage of their power of attraction and access to young women.

It doesn't make it right. But it was how it was -- in those days.

The disturbing thing for me in the Rolf Harris case is the willingness to label him a nonce when it seems clear his preference was to hug and grope older women. That is at odds with the medical definition of pedaphiles.

As I say he may really be guilty. But I am not sure.


 


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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 07 Jul 14 8.10am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Faraway - Nine of the assaults took place between 1968 and 1985 - one on a girl aged seven or eight and the rest on teenagers between 14 and 19 according to the judgement.

He was in his thirties and forties when doing this.

That's definitely nonce territory.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 07 Jul 14 8.53am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Good job the Judge and Jury, who heard all of the evidence and arguments, were sure then. Fortunately we don't need to worry our pretty little heads about his guilt or otherwise, we delegated that job through the judiciary to six men and six women. No doubt they took their job seriously.

 

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View Farawayeagle's Profile Farawayeagle Flag Sydney 07 Jul 14 10.09am Send a Private Message to Farawayeagle Add Farawayeagle as a friend

Quote Mapletree at 07 Jul 2014 8.53am

Good job the Judge and Jury, who heard all of the evidence and arguments, were sure then. Fortunately we don't need to worry our pretty little heads about his guilt or otherwise, we delegated that job through the judiciary to six men and six women. No doubt they took their job seriously.

A little bit of a bitchy sounding response. Not sure if that was your intention. If you read what I said -- I did say that they (the Jury) had chosen to believe all the evidence they heard against him. I respect that.

But that doesn't automatically mean I am convinced on every point of their decision. I have read a lot of the evidence and commentary both for and against it. I am not worrying my pretty little head about the verdict. Just trying to have a reasoned discussion about it. You have clearly decided. That's your right. You disagree with my view and that is fine too.

 


Founder Of The Crystal Palace Roller Coaster
Association

An Affiliate Of The Never A Dull Moment Club

R.I.P. DJ Hardline -- Gone Way Too Soon

GKAS Member 54

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View stateside's Profile stateside Flag Norfolk 07 Jul 14 10.22am Send a Private Message to stateside Add stateside as a friend

As the door of his cell slams shut behind him, the lights go out, Rolf puts his head in his hands and begins to cry. Behind him a voice sings, "Do you think I would leave you crying, when there's room in my bunk for two..."

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 07 Jul 14 10.36am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Quote Farawayeagle at 07 Jul 2014 10.09am

Quote Mapletree at 07 Jul 2014 8.53am

Good job the Judge and Jury, who heard all of the evidence and arguments, were sure then. Fortunately we don't need to worry our pretty little heads about his guilt or otherwise, we delegated that job through the judiciary to six men and six women. No doubt they took their job seriously.

A little bit of a bitchy sounding response. Not sure if that was your intention. If you read what I said -- I did say that they (the Jury) had chosen to believe all the evidence they heard against him. I respect that.

But that doesn't automatically mean I am convinced on every point of their decision. I have read a lot of the evidence and commentary both for and against it. I am not worrying my pretty little head about the verdict. Just trying to have a reasoned discussion about it. You have clearly decided. That's your right. You disagree with my view and that is fine too.


Nope, I haven't decided. I just feel anyone not on the jury is not in a position to second guess it. That's why we have a jury system, to try to get to a 'felt fair' situation where people aren't constantly doubting the outcome. Unlike the politicised systems of other countries. I find it frustrating that you assert the jury got it - in part - wrong. How could you or anyone else possibly know.

Not in my nature to be bitchy. Irascible, irritable, peevish and cantankerous then it's a fair cop, but not bitchy.

 

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View philontour's Profile philontour Flag cardiff 07 Jul 14 1.39pm Send a Private Message to philontour Add philontour as a friend

Quote stateside at 07 Jul 2014 10.22am

As the door of his cell slams shut behind him, the lights go out, Rolf puts his head in his hands and begins to cry. Behind him a voice sings, "Do you think I would leave you crying, when there's room in my bunk for two..."


 

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Quote Mapletree at 07 Jul 2014 10.36am

Nope, I haven't decided. I just feel anyone not on the jury is not in a position to second guess it. That's why we have a jury system, to try to get to a 'felt fair' situation where people aren't constantly doubting the outcome. Unlike the politicised systems of other countries. I find it frustrating that you assert the jury got it - in part - wrong. How could you or anyone else possibly know.

Not in my nature to be bitchy. Irascible, irritable, peevish and cantankerous then it's a fair cop, but not bitchy.


Of course people can doubt a court decision......Enough of them have been proven wrong in the past.

As for it being impossible to know.....Well, yeah but that of course cuts both ways.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 07 Jul 14 2.48pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 07 Jul 2014 2.24pm

Quote Mapletree at 07 Jul 2014 10.36am

Nope, I haven't decided. I just feel anyone not on the jury is not in a position to second guess it. That's why we have a jury system, to try to get to a 'felt fair' situation where people aren't constantly doubting the outcome. Unlike the politicised systems of other countries. I find it frustrating that you assert the jury got it - in part - wrong. How could you or anyone else possibly know.

Not in my nature to be bitchy. Irascible, irritable, peevish and cantankerous then it's a fair cop, but not bitchy.


Of course people can doubt a court decision......Enough of them have been proven wrong in the past.

As for it being impossible to know.....Well, yeah but that of course cuts both ways.


I neither said the Jury's decision was right nor did I say it couldn't be questioned. I in fact said I don't have a view on his guilt and have not made up my mind, but I have made up my mind that the Jury should not be unreasonably questioned.

Presumably they made up their minds in a rational way in the light of the evidence put before them. Therefore the vast likelihood is that if any of us had been on the Jury we would have come to the same conclusion. Unless we have information that the Jury did not I don't see any reason to second guess its decision.

Therefore I take issue with this statement:

(the Jury) had chosen to believe all the evidence they heard against him

This makes it sounds as though there was a choice. I very much doubt that, otherwise the verdict would not have been unanimous.

In addition, the information that was not put in front of the Jury - having been argued successfully as inadmissible by defence counsel - would have contributed to a view that Harris was guilty.

If anything went wrong with this process the Jury should not be blamed.

 

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 07 Jul 14 9.53pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

Vanessa Feltz

Bore off

Even Rolf wouldn't sink as low as you.

[Link]

 


"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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