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Churchill was a prick

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View 20 Spaces Isnt Enoug's Profile 20 Spaces Isnt Enoug Flag Bolton 30 Jan 15 4.00pm Send a Private Message to 20 Spaces Isnt Enoug Add 20 Spaces Isnt Enoug as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jan 2015 11.27am

Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 10.52am

You can say what you like about Churchill but it might be more pertinent to look at how Roosevelt was happy to allow the Russians to be given eastern Europe to keep them onside and Stalin himself and his brutal regime of tyranny. He was worse than Hitler.
Yes we can all second guess decision making from the past but it is a pointless pursuit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Stalin or Roosevelt. I'm not really sure Stalin can be classed as worse than Hitler, on a parr maybe, but having read Mein Kampf, I can safely tell you what Hitler's long term plan was for 'Eastern Europe' was most certainly not as positive as the communist regimes that dominated Eastern Europe after 1945 - Which isn't a defense of those regimes.

Also its important to remember that the holocaust is only the tip of the Hitler / National Socialist genocide. When you include the depopulation and genocide following operation Barbarossa, the decades of soviet pogroms and '5 year plan famines' start to look positively tame (bearing in mind the Nazi's achieved something like 10-12m deaths in the space of a few years).

In truth, when genocide and whole sale murder is part of your domestic and/or foreign policy, you're 'as bad' as any other of the major murder junky c**ts of history. Its just a question of scale.

Murdering two people doesn't make you better or worse than someone who murders one person. You're still a murderer, its only a quantitative difference.


By coincidence,Jamie, Stalin is supposed to have said something
like " One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 30 Jan 15 4.04pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jan 2015 10.14am

Churchill was probably a prick he certainly seems like one, but he was the right prick for the job, and got it done (admittedly several hundred thousand people died in order to facilitate that success, I think leaders tend to get a bit too much credit - Churchill didn't win the war, he was just in charge of the country at the time and played his part).

That Bomber Harris seemed like a right c**t as well, but if you're going to have someone in charge of Bomber command during an all out, balls to the wall, war, you want someone I suppose who can give the kind of orders that result in Dresden.

Churchill, wasn't actually that much of a great politician outside of that period - Very much a War Time Leader, a bit of a drunk, plagued by depression, partial to cocaine, amazingly charismatic and quite witty (or cutting). Between 1939 and 1945 he was pretty vital.

Doesn't stop him being a prick. You can't really be a politician without being a prick.


Dead set against bombing Dresden apparently. The Soviets pretty much insisted in order to take out a major rail intersection. This completely overstated its strategic importance and the fact that the rail infrastructure could have been damaged in other ways. Harris wanted to concentrate all efforts on Berlin but was ordered to make the order to appease our allies in the East.

 

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View ghosteagle's Profile ghosteagle Flag 30 Jan 15 5.20pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote silvertop at 30 Jan 2015 4.04pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jan 2015 10.14am

Churchill was probably a prick he certainly seems like one, but he was the right prick for the job, and got it done (admittedly several hundred thousand people died in order to facilitate that success, I think leaders tend to get a bit too much credit - Churchill didn't win the war, he was just in charge of the country at the time and played his part).

That Bomber Harris seemed like a right c**t as well, but if you're going to have someone in charge of Bomber command during an all out, balls to the wall, war, you want someone I suppose who can give the kind of orders that result in Dresden.

Churchill, wasn't actually that much of a great politician outside of that period - Very much a War Time Leader, a bit of a drunk, plagued by depression, partial to cocaine, amazingly charismatic and quite witty (or cutting). Between 1939 and 1945 he was pretty vital.

Doesn't stop him being a prick. You can't really be a politician without being a prick.


Dead set against bombing Dresden apparently. The Soviets pretty much insisted in order to take out a major rail intersection. This completely overstated its strategic importance and the fact that the rail infrastructure could have been damaged in other ways. Harris wanted to concentrate all efforts on Berlin but was ordered to make the order to appease our allies in the East.

This version of events comes from a British interpreter who was present at Yalta and was exposed some time ago as cold war propaganda. Harris actually wanted the attack to cover a larger area, Chemnitz, Leipzig and Dresden. Dresden was ultimately settled on as a centre of rail, telephone systems and utilities and the design was to cause chaos among the civilian population.

 

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View Kosowski's Profile Kosowski Flag Standing at the top of B Block 30 Jan 15 5.25pm Send a Private Message to Kosowski Add Kosowski as a friend

To General Anders (the victor of Monte Casino):

"You can rest assured about the future of Poland..."

In fairness I think he did what he could and genuinely respected the contribution of Poland to the Allied cause.

Roosevelt was the f***ing idiot.

 


Block B comment of 2011/2012 Season:

"That's better Palace, better...but still fucking shit!"

----------------------------------------------------------------

Dann to Much, Much to Yong.

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pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 30 Jan 15 5.44pm

This the programme that I was talking about, I think it is pretty even handed. Although it contradicts some of the "HOL facts" on the thread, for example, his wish to bomb Dresden, he wanted it.

[Link]

It neatly puts Winnie into the context of his time and strips away the myth and revisionism that built up around the man.

Edited by pefwin (30 Jan 2015 5.45pm)

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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View ghosteagle's Profile ghosteagle Flag 30 Jan 15 5.49pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote Kosowski at 30 Jan 2015 5.25pm

To General Anders (the victor of Monte Casino):

"You can rest assured about the future of Poland..."

In fairness I think he did what he could and genuinely respected the contribution of Poland to the Allied cause.

Roosevelt was the f***ing idiot.


?

 

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TheJudge Flag 30 Jan 15 7.20pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 30 Jan 2015 11.15am

Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 10.52am

Yes we can all second guess decision making from the past but it is a pointless pursuit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So what you're saying equates to "let's ignore a discussion of history because it can't teach us anything of use for the future."

On the contrary, NOT pointless at all. Hindsight isn't the only by-product of re-examining such events.

That's not what I'm saying.
Learning from history is one thing. Vilifying someone after the event for his decision making, especially as the outcome was ultimately successful, is pointless.
If we want to aim our bile at someone, aim it at Hitler. He was solely responsible for wrecking Europe and making us all poorer to the extent that it is still felt today.

 

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View kingdowieonthewall's Profile kingdowieonthewall Flag Sussex, ex-Cronx. 30 Jan 15 7.28pm Send a Private Message to kingdowieonthewall Add kingdowieonthewall as a friend

pretty offensive post 'cereal.
not the first time.
usual bollox.

 


Kids,tired of being bothered by your pesky parents?
Then leave home, get a job & pay your own bills, while you still know everything.

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View ghosteagle's Profile ghosteagle Flag 30 Jan 15 7.30pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 7.20pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 30 Jan 2015 11.15am

Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 10.52am

Yes we can all second guess decision making from the past but it is a pointless pursuit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So what you're saying equates to "let's ignore a discussion of history because it can't teach us anything of use for the future."

On the contrary, NOT pointless at all. Hindsight isn't the only by-product of re-examining such events.

That's not what I'm saying.
Learning from history is one thing. Vilifying someone after the event for his decision making, especially as the outcome was ultimately successful, is pointless.
If we want to aim our bile at someone, aim it at Hitler. He was solely responsible for wrecking Europe and making us all poorer to the extent that it is still felt today.

'Solely responsible' hmmmmm. That one doesn't ring true.

 

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legaleagle Flag 30 Jan 15 7.34pm

Quote topcat at 30 Jan 2015 2.09pm

Quote OldFella at 30 Jan 2015 10.09am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 30 Jan 2015 9.56am

At least Churchill didn't have to "sex up" documents to prosecute an illegal war.

Agreed! But oh no, here come all the loony lefties......


Wasn't it the looney lefties that were against the war right from the start?


Wasn't that more the loony ultra rightists,the appeasers and fascists and their ilk that would have still been very happy to cut a deal with Hitler half way through the war?

Though before the possible response,yes I know the Moscow-instructed Communist Party (to the horror of many of the rank and file) adopted a more "neutral" position pre May 1941.

 

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legaleagle Flag 30 Jan 15 7.38pm

Quote Kosowski at 30 Jan 2015 5.25pm

To General Anders (the victor of Monte Casino):

"You can rest assured about the future of Poland..."

In fairness I think he did what he could and genuinely respected the contribution of Poland to the Allied cause.

Roosevelt was the f***ing idiot.

I think realistically there wasn't much on the ground that could have been done about Poland in 1944-45 ,Stalin knew that and held all the cards.


Edited by legaleagle (30 Jan 2015 7.41pm)

 

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TheJudge Flag 30 Jan 15 7.39pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jan 2015 11.27am

Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 10.52am

You can say what you like about Churchill but it might be more pertinent to look at how Roosevelt was happy to allow the Russians to be given eastern Europe to keep them onside and Stalin himself and his brutal regime of tyranny. He was worse than Hitler.
Yes we can all second guess decision making from the past but it is a pointless pursuit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Stalin or Roosevelt. I'm not really sure Stalin can be classed as worse than Hitler, on a parr maybe, but having read Mein Kampf, I can safely tell you what Hitler's long term plan was for 'Eastern Europe' was most certainly not as positive as the communist regimes that dominated Eastern Europe after 1945 - Which isn't a defense of those regimes.

Also its important to remember that the holocaust is only the tip of the Hitler / National Socialist genocide. When you include the depopulation and genocide following operation Barbarossa, the decades of soviet pogroms and '5 year plan famines' start to look positively tame (bearing in mind the Nazi's achieved something like 10-12m deaths in the space of a few years).

In truth, when genocide and whole sale murder is part of your domestic and/or foreign policy, you're 'as bad' as any other of the major murder junky c**ts of history. Its just a question of scale.

Murdering two people doesn't make you better or worse than someone who murders one person. You're still a murderer, its only a quantitative difference.



Stalin killed more than half a million of his own people. He was a tyrant of the highest order. Hitler was a fool who set Europe back at least 50 years by waring with those who should have been his natural allies. The extermination of 6 million Jews was an act that will guarantee his place in the all time hall of infamy. Neither of them would have been invited to tea at my place, that's for sure.

 

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