Churchill was a prick

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Lyons550 Shirley 23 May 13 10.14am
Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am 'Nice' people don't make good leaders in times of crisis. You need someone who is able to make tough decisions and follow them through. The world saw him as an unshakable character, a modern (at the time) British Bulldog. I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them. The closest would be William Hague The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World
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Lyons550

Shirley 23 May 13 10.14am

Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am

'Nice' people don't make good leaders in times of crisis. You need someone who is able to make tough decisions and follow them through. The world saw him as an unshakable character, a modern (at the time) British Bulldog.

I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them.

The closest would be William Hague

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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Pinky Kent 23 May 13 10.22am
Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am 'Nice' people don't make good leaders in times of crisis. You need someone who is able to make tough decisions and follow them through. The world saw him as an unshakable character, a modern (at the time) British Bulldog. I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them. Jacob Rees-Mogg?
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Pinky

Kent 23 May 13 10.22am

Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am

I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them.

Jacob Rees-Mogg?

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Kosowski Standing at the top of B Block 23 May 13 10.25am
Nasty piece of work, but in many ways that was what was needed after the cowards that preceeded him. Had Sikorski assasinated and was very much co-responsible for a cover up after it became clear the Soviets were responsible for the Katyn massacre. However on the positive side, he had guts and was no spineless Chamberlain - ensured the UK became a base from which the soldiers, sailors and airmen of occupied nations could continue fighting against Hitler. Shame he could not persuade FDR about the true nature of Stalin, his designs on the continent and his promises of 'free elections' in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Edited by Kosowski (23 May 2013 10.29am) Block B comment of 2011/2012 Season: "That's better Palace, better...but still fucking shit!" ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dann to Much, Much to Yong.
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Kosowski

Standing at the top of B Block 23 May 13 10.25am

Nasty piece of work, but in many ways that was what was needed after the cowards that preceeded him. Had Sikorski assasinated and was very much co-responsible for a cover up after it became clear the Soviets were responsible for the Katyn massacre. However on the positive side, he had guts and was no spineless Chamberlain - ensured the UK became a base from which the soldiers, sailors and airmen of occupied nations could continue fighting against Hitler. Shame he could not persuade FDR about the true nature of Stalin, his designs on the continent and his promises of 'free elections' in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

Edited by Kosowski (23 May 2013 10.29am)

Block B comment of 2011/2012 Season:

"That's better Palace, better...but still fucking shit!"

----------------------------------------------------------------

Dann to Much, Much to Yong.

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silvertop Portishead 23 May 13 10.28am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 May 2013 9.41am Being a prick is an essential quality in any leader, show me one that wasn't an arrogant prick. But Churchill made some very important big calls during the war, and his speeches galvanised an nation that was on its knees. Great wartime leaders need to be pricks at time, because sometimes you have to let Coventry burn, for the long term objectives. And the idea for SOE which almost certainly shortened the war dramatically, and saved thousands of allied lives was his. As was the commandos. On the other hand, as was failing to employ Malay's in any part of the security forces meaning the Japs were able to install thousands of spies because our imperial police couldn't tell the difference! As was handing over 300 tanks from Malaya to the Soviets that could have defended the region. As was forbidding entry into neutral Siam and overruling the intelligence that said the Japs would be coming from there - factors that left us utterly unprepared and helped in the fall of Singapore. He was also the one who insisted on the African expedition - not as the best method of defeating the Axis powers, but to defend imperial interests. Indeed, this went so far as "proving" to the US the folly of attacking France by sending in Canadian canon fodder [of course, he wouldn't use British troups] in what he well knew was a hopeless attack on ridiculously fortified Dieppe. Didn't he also overrule investigation into a known traitor who was busy supplying intelligence to the Japs just because he was nobility. And I am afraid, putting all the blame on Bomber Harris for the massacre of non-combatants [remember, the Blitz was a reaction against our bombing of non-military targets] is wrong given those orders came directly from the fat bloke. And then there was returning the Cossaks to Uncle Joe in the sure and certain knowledge that they would be massacred. Finally, he was a hopeless peace time politician who had next to no grip on economics. But as the man said, innumerable errors, misplaced defence of the ruling class system and an empire that any fool must have known was all but dead, but his rhetoric and image did give this country heart during our darkest moments when all appeared lost against a seemingly invincible foe. Blood stained for both good and bad reasons. Complex, error strewn, incompetent, heroic, could handle a drink.
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silvertop

Portishead 23 May 13 10.28am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 May 2013 9.41am

Being a prick is an essential quality in any leader, show me one that wasn't an arrogant prick. But Churchill made some very important big calls during the war, and his speeches galvanised an nation that was on its knees. Great wartime leaders need to be pricks at time, because sometimes you have to let Coventry burn, for the long term objectives.

And the idea for SOE which almost certainly shortened the war dramatically, and saved thousands of allied lives was his.

As was the commandos. On the other hand, as was failing to employ Malay's in any part of the security forces meaning the Japs were able to install thousands of spies because our imperial police couldn't tell the difference! As was handing over 300 tanks from Malaya to the Soviets that could have defended the region. As was forbidding entry into neutral Siam and overruling the intelligence that said the Japs would be coming from there - factors that left us utterly unprepared and helped in the fall of Singapore. He was also the one who insisted on the African expedition - not as the best method of defeating the Axis powers, but to defend imperial interests. Indeed, this went so far as "proving" to the US the folly of attacking France by sending in Canadian canon fodder [of course, he wouldn't use British troups] in what he well knew was a hopeless attack on ridiculously fortified Dieppe. Didn't he also overrule investigation into a known traitor who was busy supplying intelligence to the Japs just because he was nobility. And I am afraid, putting all the blame on Bomber Harris for the massacre of non-combatants [remember, the Blitz was a reaction against our bombing of non-military targets] is wrong given those orders came directly from the fat bloke. And then there was returning the Cossaks to Uncle Joe in the sure and certain knowledge that they would be massacred. Finally, he was a hopeless peace time politician who had next to no grip on economics.

But as the man said, innumerable errors, misplaced defence of the ruling class system and an empire that any fool must have known was all but dead, but his rhetoric and image did give this country heart during our darkest moments when all appeared lost against a seemingly invincible foe. Blood stained for both good and bad reasons. Complex, error strewn, incompetent, heroic, could handle a drink.

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Hoof Hearted 23 May 13 10.35am
Quote palace777 at 23 May 2013 9.58am and another thing,his f*cking car insurance is way too dear!!!!! Ohhhhhhhh No No No
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Hoof Hearted 23 May 13 10.35am

Quote palace777 at 23 May 2013 9.58am

and another thing,his f*cking car insurance is way too dear!!!!!

Ohhhhhhhh No No No

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TheEagleOfSteel Minnesota, USA 23 May 13 10.38am
Before you go singling one man out, were there any WW2 leaders who did survive the war without blood on their hands? Josef Stalin was responsible for more than twice the number of deaths Hitler was (nearly 50,000,000 by some estimates), President Truman killed nearly 100,000 civilians by dropping nuclear weapons in Japan.. I haven't even touched on the atrocities committed by the Axis powers but you get my point. No one was innocent in the war. Well except maybe Albert Lebrun (French leader), and you know how well that worked out... Edited by TheEagleOfSteel (23 May 2013 10.39am) SO HERE'S TO YOU FAMOUS RED AND BLUE!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------- An Englishman in Minneapolis, drop me a message if you're nearby!
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TheEagleOfSteel

Minnesota, USA 23 May 13 10.38am

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Before you go singling one man out, were there any WW2 leaders who did survive the war without blood on their hands?

Josef Stalin was responsible for more than twice the number of deaths Hitler was (nearly 50,000,000 by some estimates), President Truman killed nearly 100,000 civilians by dropping nuclear weapons in Japan..

I haven't even touched on the atrocities committed by the Axis powers but you get my point. No one was innocent in the war. Well except maybe Albert Lebrun (French leader), and you know how well that worked out...

Edited by TheEagleOfSteel (23 May 2013 10.39am)

SO HERE'S TO YOU FAMOUS RED AND BLUE!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------
An Englishman in Minneapolis, drop me a message if you're nearby!

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serial thriller The Promised Land 23 May 13 11.10am
Quote Johnny Eagles at 23 May 2013 9.21am Is it even possible to judge him through modern eyes? So the British ruling class didn't have a modern enlightend view on eugenics. So what? There was a programme on radio 4 recently about the fact that Britain refused to evacuate disabled children because they weren�t worth saving! But blaming it on Churchill and calling him �a prck� is schoolboy revolutionary stuff, serial, and you know it. Clement Attlee signed documents at (or maybe it was shortly after) the Potsdam Conference which permitted the execution of German women and children* (the so-called �Vetriebene�, ie, those forced out of Soviet-occupied Poland). I think the lesson is not that Churchill �was a pr*ck� but that there simply are no heroes, only people, and therefore all hero myths are bunk. Johnny, you are, of course, right in stating that it is infantile of me to call him a prick, but I and you know the best way of provoking debate on here is acting like a kid (see post threatening to beat me up at Wembley as an example). I accept that most 'great' leaders tend to have extremely negative aspects to their character, which at times must be overlooked to allow their greater aspects to flourish, which Churchill had in some of his military tactics during the war. However in my eyes it's about weighing up the negatives with the positives and seeing which is overbearing. To my mind, regardless of historical context, his wilful part played in killing millions of Indians is monstrous, and leaves any potential moral high ground on the mass killing of Jews by the Nazis pretty well redundant. Similarly I think his qualities as a politician were severely limited, in comparison to some of his contemporaries, and this is highlighted in him getting trounced in 45. He won us the war, I can give him that. But, as with Cromwell, I personally find it deeply uncomfortable when I hear some of the quixotic sycophancy issued out to him. I would go along with your argument about debunking the idea of a hero too. Perhaps that was the purpose of this thread in a wider context for me. If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 23 May 13 11.10am

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Quote Johnny Eagles at 23 May 2013 9.21am

Is it even possible to judge him through modern eyes?

So the British ruling class didn't have a modern enlightend view on eugenics. So what? There was a programme on radio 4 recently about the fact that Britain refused to evacuate disabled children because they weren�t worth saving! But blaming it on Churchill and calling him �a pr*ck� is schoolboy revolutionary stuff, serial, and you know it.

Clement Attlee signed documents at (or maybe it was shortly after) the Potsdam Conference which permitted the execution of German women and children (the so-called �Vetriebene�, ie, those forced out of Soviet-occupied Poland).

I think the lesson is not that Churchill �was a pr*ck� but that there simply are no heroes, only people, and therefore all hero myths are bunk.

Johnny, you are, of course, right in stating that it is infantile of me to call him a prick, but I and you know the best way of provoking debate on here is acting like a kid (see post threatening to beat me up at Wembley as an example).

I accept that most 'great' leaders tend to have extremely negative aspects to their character, which at times must be overlooked to allow their greater aspects to flourish, which Churchill had in some of his military tactics during the war.

However in my eyes it's about weighing up the negatives with the positives and seeing which is overbearing. To my mind, regardless of historical context, his wilful part played in killing millions of Indians is monstrous, and leaves any potential moral high ground on the mass killing of Jews by the Nazis pretty well redundant.

Similarly I think his qualities as a politician were severely limited, in comparison to some of his contemporaries, and this is highlighted in him getting trounced in 45.

He won us the war, I can give him that. But, as with Cromwell, I personally find it deeply uncomfortable when I hear some of the quixotic sycophancy issued out to him. I would go along with your argument about debunking the idea of a hero too. Perhaps that was the purpose of this thread in a wider context for me.

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 23 May 13 11.10am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 May 2013 9.41am Being a prick is an essential quality in any leader, show me one that wasn't an arrogant prick. But Churchill made some very important big calls during the war, and his speeches galvanised an nation that was on its knees. Great wartime leaders need to be pricks at time, because sometimes you have to let Coventry burn, for the long term objectives. And the idea for SOE which almost certainly shortened the war dramatically, and saved thousands of allied lives was his. Very true, all of it. His record pre-WW2, however, was utterly shocking: a career littered with ineptitude and cynical political opportunism that even today's crop of knobheads would struggle to match. Very much a man of the moment but what a moment and what a man.. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 23 May 13 11.10am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 May 2013 9.41am

And the idea for SOE which almost certainly shortened the war dramatically, and saved thousands of allied lives was his.

Very true, all of it.

His record pre-WW2, however, was utterly shocking: a career littered with ineptitude and cynical political opportunism that even today's crop of knobheads would struggle to match.

Very much a man of the moment but what a moment and what a man..

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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Kermit8 Hevon 23 May 13 11.33am
Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am 'Nice' people don't make good leaders in times of crisis. You need someone who is able to make tough decisions and follow them through. The world saw him as an unshakable character, a modern (at the time) British Bulldog. I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them. Gandhi? Iron will and a decent pleasant fellow by all accounts. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 23 May 13 11.33am

Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am

'Nice' people don't make good leaders in times of crisis. You need someone who is able to make tough decisions and follow them through. The world saw him as an unshakable character, a modern (at the time) British Bulldog.

I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them.

Gandhi? Iron will and a decent pleasant fellow by all accounts.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 23 May 13 11.35am
Quote Kermit8 at 23 May 2013 11.33am Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am 'Nice' people don't make good leaders in times of crisis. You need someone who is able to make tough decisions and follow them through. The world saw him as an unshakable character, a modern (at the time) British Bulldog. I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them. Gandhi? Iron will and a decent pleasant fellow by all accounts. An utter cnt, apparently. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham*
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 23 May 13 11.35am

Quote Kermit8 at 23 May 2013 11.33am

Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am

I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them.

Gandhi? Iron will and a decent pleasant fellow by all accounts.

An utter c*nt, apparently.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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TheEagleOfSteel Minnesota, USA 23 May 13 12.51pm
Quote Kermit8 at 23 May 2013 11.33am Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am 'Nice' people don't make good leaders in times of crisis. You need someone who is able to make tough decisions and follow them through. The world saw him as an unshakable character, a modern (at the time) British Bulldog. I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them. Gandhi? Iron will and a decent pleasant fellow by all accounts. Gandhi was as racist as anyone in history. He was heavily racist against black people, whom he referred to as 'untouchables', he said that Jewish people in Germany should have committed mass suicide and referred to Hitler as 'dear friend' in a series of letters. I suppose you could say these were common views in that part of the world at the time, but that doesn't excuse him. SO HERE'S TO YOU FAMOUS RED AND BLUE!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------- An Englishman in Minneapolis, drop me a message if you're nearby!
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TheEagleOfSteel

Minnesota, USA 23 May 13 12.51pm

Quote Kermit8 at 23 May 2013 11.33am

Quote TheEagleOfSteel at 23 May 2013 10.08am

I challenge you to name a single politician in today's government who could have pulled the country through such a horrific war. I wouldn't have faith in a single bloody one of them.

Gandhi? Iron will and a decent pleasant fellow by all accounts.

Gandhi was as racist as anyone in history. He was heavily racist against black people, whom he referred to as 'untouchables', he said that Jewish people in Germany should have committed mass suicide and referred to Hitler as 'dear friend' in a series of letters.

I suppose you could say these were common views in that part of the world at the time, but that doesn't excuse him.

SO HERE'S TO YOU FAMOUS RED AND BLUE!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------
An Englishman in Minneapolis, drop me a message if you're nearby!

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 May 13 1.16pm
Quote Cucking Funt at 23 May 2013 11.10am Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 May 2013 9.41am Being a prick is an essential quality in any leader, show me one that wasn't an arrogant prick. But Churchill made some very important big calls during the war, and his speeches galvanised an nation that was on its knees. Great wartime leaders need to be pricks at time, because sometimes you have to let Coventry burn, for the long term objectives. And the idea for SOE which almost certainly shortened the war dramatically, and saved thousands of allied lives was his. Very true, all of it. His record pre-WW2, however, was utterly shocking: a career littered with ineptitude and cynical political opportunism that even today's crop of knobheads would struggle to match. Very much a man of the moment but what a moment and what a man.. Indeed, the situation makes the most of the man, and his career was largely built on being 'right about the Germans' and being related to the right people - and that a career in politics was probably the only thing he was really suited to after the military, and he had to do something (not being of sufficent aristocratic background to be truely independent). His wifes cousins were the Mitfords sisters, who he knew rather well (Debroah Mitford would marry into his Nephews family I think). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 May 13 1.16pm

Quote Cucking Funt at 23 May 2013 11.10am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 May 2013 9.41am

And the idea for SOE which almost certainly shortened the war dramatically, and saved thousands of allied lives was his.

Very true, all of it.

His record pre-WW2, however, was utterly shocking: a career littered with ineptitude and cynical political opportunism that even today's crop of knobheads would struggle to match.

Very much a man of the moment but what a moment and what a man..

Indeed, the situation makes the most of the man, and his career was largely built on being 'right about the Germans' and being related to the right people - and that a career in politics was probably the only thing he was really suited to after the military, and he had to do something (not being of sufficent aristocratic background to be truely independent).

His wifes cousins were the Mitfords sisters, who he knew rather well (Debroah Mitford would marry into his Nephews family I think).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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