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NickinOX Sailing country. 14 Jul 14 3.00pm
Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.51pm Talking about history As I've already said, I am not offended by the flag. But let's not distort history to make an argument The state's right in question was slavery. The flag pictured represents a typical response to criticisim of the flag's use. It is carries a standard argument used by many southerners who seek to ignore the fundamental cause and reason for the conflict as well as the 100+ years of oppression since. The state's right the southern states wanted to guarantee was slavery. Don't take my word for it look at the indivivual southern states' own constitutions as well as the constitution of the Confederacy. I posted the latter, earlier. Edited by NickinOX (14 Jul 2014 3.01pm) If you come to a fork in the road, take it.
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NickinOX

Sailing country. 14 Jul 14 3.00pm

Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.51pm

Talking about history

As I've already said, I am not offended by the flag.

But let's not distort history to make an argument The state's right in question was slavery. The flag pictured represents a typical response to criticisim of the flag's use. It is carries a standard argument used by many southerners who seek to ignore the fundamental cause and reason for the conflict as well as the 100+ years of oppression since. The state's right the southern states wanted to guarantee was slavery.

Don't take my word for it look at the indivivual southern states' own constitutions as well as the constitution of the Confederacy. I posted the latter, earlier.

Edited by NickinOX (14 Jul 2014 3.01pm)

If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 14 Jul 14 3.06pm
Quite like this thread. Growing up, the Confederate flag was always Dukes of Hazard, Rockabilly ala Stray Cats / Matchbox etc. anad was let's face it pretty cool. I don't doubt the troubled history but fully understand how and why people use it when it is used so liberally in the general media. the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 14 Jul 14 3.06pm

Quite like this thread. Growing up, the Confederate flag was always Dukes of Hazard, Rockabilly ala Stray Cats / Matchbox etc. anad was let's face it pretty cool.

I don't doubt the troubled history but fully understand how and why people use it when it is used so liberally in the general media.

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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grump Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 3.13pm
Quote NickinOX at 14 Jul 2014 3.00pm Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.51pm Talking about history As I've already said, I am not offended by the flag. But let's not distort history to make an argument The state's right in question was slavery. The flag pictured represents a typical response to criticisim of the flag's use. It is carries a standard argument used by many southerners who seek to ignore the fundamental cause and reason for the conflict as well as the 100+ years of oppression since. The state's right the southern states wanted to guarantee was slavery. Don't take my word for it look at the indivivual southern states' own constitutions as well as the constitution of the Confederacy. I posted the latter, earlier. Edited by NickinOX (14 Jul 2014 3.01pm) I'd be interested in your view on the use of the Union Jack which is also heavily assosiated with slavery but for some reason the majority of people don't find it offensive in the same way they find the confederate flag offensive. Just curious. Stay out the way of the Southern thing.
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grump

Milford On Sea 14 Jul 14 3.13pm

Quote NickinOX at 14 Jul 2014 3.00pm

Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.51pm

Talking about history

As I've already said, I am not offended by the flag.

Don't take my word for it look at the indivivual southern states' own constitutions as well as the constitution of the Confederacy. I posted the latter, earlier.

Edited by NickinOX (14 Jul 2014 3.01pm)

I'd be interested in your view on the use of the Union Jack which is also heavily assosiated with slavery but for some reason the majority of people don't find it offensive in the same way they find the confederate flag offensive. Just curious.

Stay out the way of the Southern thing.

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Stirlingsays 14 Jul 14 4.10pm
Quote doublesuited77 at 14 Jul 2014 2.30pm Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.24pm Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on. It doesn't matter what is intended, what matters is the effect. I don't mind us upsetting one bloke by telling him not to fly it - if necessary - for the greater good. If this can be perceived as a racist statement it should not be flown. Full stop. The HF already suffers from a bit of a mixed review in some circles and other Ultras do have reputations for racism and intolerance. Don't take the risk. Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude.... Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm) Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well. It upsets more than just Americans. It upsets most people who have a knowledge of American history, myself included. I remember a few years back, someone was flying a National Front flag in the Holmesdale. During the 2nd match, I saw the flag, it was removed since we dont want to be linked to racist extremist groups. I think the same logic should apply here. It's quite an insult to call all the people who use the confederate flag as racist or lacking in history knowledge. It represents much more than what you singluarly choose to recognise. Those who fail to recognise that give insult to those that don't. If someone uses the flag to represent slavery or a far right group then yes.....tell them no thank you we don't want that here. If someone waves it because they are southern American, anti government or whatever it is.....Then fair enough. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Jul 14 4.10pm

Quote doublesuited77 at 14 Jul 2014 2.30pm

Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.24pm

Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm

I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on.

It doesn't matter what is intended, what matters is the effect. I don't mind us upsetting one bloke by telling him not to fly it - if necessary - for the greater good. If this can be perceived as a racist statement it should not be flown. Full stop. The HF already suffers from a bit of a mixed review in some circles and other Ultras do have reputations for racism and intolerance. Don't take the risk.

Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude....

Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm)

Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well.

It upsets more than just Americans. It upsets most people who have a knowledge of American history, myself included.

I remember a few years back, someone was flying a National Front flag in the Holmesdale. During the 2nd match, I saw the flag, it was removed since we dont want to be linked to racist extremist groups. I think the same logic should apply here.

It's quite an insult to call all the people who use the confederate flag as racist or lacking in history knowledge.

It represents much more than what you singluarly choose to recognise. Those who fail to recognise that give insult to those that don't.

If someone uses the flag to represent slavery or a far right group then yes.....tell them no thank you we don't want that here.

If someone waves it because they are southern American, anti government or whatever it is.....Then fair enough.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 14 Jul 14 4.12pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.10pm Quote doublesuited77 at 14 Jul 2014 2.30pm Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.24pm Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on. It doesn't matter what is intended, what matters is the effect. I don't mind us upsetting one bloke by telling him not to fly it - if necessary - for the greater good. If this can be perceived as a racist statement it should not be flown. Full stop. The HF already suffers from a bit of a mixed review in some circles and other Ultras do have reputations for racism and intolerance. Don't take the risk. Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude.... Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm) Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well. It upsets more than just Americans. It upsets most people who have a knowledge of American history, myself included. I remember a few years back, someone was flying a National Front flag in the Holmesdale. During the 2nd match, I saw the flag, it was removed since we dont want to be linked to racist extremist groups. I think the same logic should apply here. It's quite an insult to call all the people who use the confederate flag as racist or lacking in history knowledge. It represents much more than what you singluarly choose to recognise. Those who fail to recognise that give insult to those that don't. If someone uses the flag to represent slavery or a far right group then yes.....tell them no thank you we don't want that here. If someone waves it because they are southern American, anti government or whatever it is.....Then fair enough. Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 14 Jul 14 4.12pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.10pm

Quote doublesuited77 at 14 Jul 2014 2.30pm

Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.24pm

Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm

I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on.

Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude....

Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm)

Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well.

It upsets more than just Americans. It upsets most people who have a knowledge of American history, myself included.

It's quite an insult to call all the people who use the confederate flag as racist or lacking in history knowledge.

It represents much more than what you singluarly choose to recognise. Those who fail to recognise that give insult to those that don't.

If someone uses the flag to represent slavery or a far right group then yes.....tell them no thank you we don't want that here.

If someone waves it because they are southern American, anti government or whatever it is.....Then fair enough.

Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not.

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Stirlingsays 14 Jul 14 4.26pm
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not. We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not. It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Jul 14 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm

Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not.

We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not.

It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 14 Jul 14 4.31pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.26pm Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not. We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not. It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm) Are you happy for say 30% of American viewers (random figure I know) to think that Palace tolerate racist symbolism at their matches?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 14 Jul 14 4.31pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm

Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not.

We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not.

It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm)

Are you happy for say 30% of American viewers (random figure I know) to think that Palace tolerate racist symbolism at their matches?

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Stirlingsays 14 Jul 14 4.47pm
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.31pm Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.26pm Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not. We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not. It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm) Are you happy for say 30% of American viewers (random figure I know) to think that Palace tolerate racist symbolism at their matches? I think to just regard it as a racism symbol is ill educated.....Millions of Americans watched Dukes of Hazard didn't they? I don't remember any slavers in that show. The flag isn't just one thing as many would like to believe.....So I'm a bit non plussed to be honest. If it's flown again, find out, and if the person's a twit chuck him out. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.48pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Jul 14 4.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.31pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm

Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not.

We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not.

It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm)

Are you happy for say 30% of American viewers (random figure I know) to think that Palace tolerate racist symbolism at their matches?

I think to just regard it as a racism symbol is ill educated.....Millions of Americans watched Dukes of Hazard didn't they? I don't remember any slavers in that show.

The flag isn't just one thing as many would like to believe.....So I'm a bit non plussed to be honest.

If it's flown again, find out, and if the person's a twit chuck him out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.48pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 14 Jul 14 4.52pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.47pm Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.31pm Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.26pm Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not. We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not. It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm) Are you happy for say 30% of American viewers (random figure I know) to think that Palace tolerate racist symbolism at their matches? I think to just regard it as a racism symbol is ill educated.....Millions of Americans watched Dukes of Hazard didn't they? I don't remember any slavers in that show. The flag isn't just one thing as many would like to believe.....So I'm a bit non plussed to be honest. If it's flown again, find out, and if the person's a twit chuck him out. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.48pm) Whilst I agree that it can mean different things to different people, the fact that it is in one sense construed as a symbol of white supremacy means that some will see it as that. To say that's their problem doesn't detract from the negative light it could put our club in.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 14 Jul 14 4.52pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.31pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm

Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not.

We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not.

It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm)

Are you happy for say 30% of American viewers (random figure I know) to think that Palace tolerate racist symbolism at their matches?

I think to just regard it as a racism symbol is ill educated.....Millions of Americans watched Dukes of Hazard didn't they? I don't remember any slavers in that show.

The flag isn't just one thing as many would like to believe.....So I'm a bit non plussed to be honest.

If it's flown again, find out, and if the person's a twit chuck him out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.48pm)

Whilst I agree that it can mean different things to different people, the fact that it is in one sense construed as a symbol of white supremacy means that some will see it as that. To say that's their problem doesn't detract from the negative light it could put our club in.

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Icepick Tony Chester 14 Jul 14 4.54pm
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.10pm Quote doublesuited77 at 14 Jul 2014 2.30pm Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.24pm Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on. It doesn't matter what is intended, what matters is the effect. I don't mind us upsetting one bloke by telling him not to fly it - if necessary - for the greater good. If this can be perceived as a racist statement it should not be flown. Full stop. The HF already suffers from a bit of a mixed review in some circles and other Ultras do have reputations for racism and intolerance. Don't take the risk. Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude.... Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm) Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well. It upsets more than just Americans. It upsets most people who have a knowledge of American history, myself included. I remember a few years back, someone was flying a National Front flag in the Holmesdale. During the 2nd match, I saw the flag, it was removed since we dont want to be linked to racist extremist groups. I think the same logic should apply here. It's quite an insult to call all the people who use the confederate flag as racist or lacking in history knowledge. It represents much more than what you singluarly choose to recognise. Those who fail to recognise that give insult to those that don't. If someone uses the flag to represent slavery or a far right group then yes.....tell them no thank you we don't want that here. If someone waves it because they are southern American, anti government or whatever it is.....Then fair enough. Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not. You can't. Offence is taken, rather than given so there will always be someone, somewhere, that will find something that they don't like. Flags will always stir up problems as they will mean something to one person and something else to another, generally neither group will accept the others view either. "They got his own song 'He's just too good for you', it's quite unbelievable but when you see it and he's facing up someone - I actually feel sorry for them, 'Cos he actually is" - Ian Holloway
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Icepick Tony

Chester 14 Jul 14 4.54pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.10pm

Quote doublesuited77 at 14 Jul 2014 2.30pm

Quote grump at 14 Jul 2014 2.24pm

Quote Mapletree at 14 Jul 2014 1.28pm

I can't believe this thread is still running, Adrian B is bang on.

Or maybe this doesn't matter as primarily it's only upsetting Americans who, of course, don't count. How racist is that attitude....

Edited by Mapletree (14 Jul 2014 1.29pm)

Sorry mate, it only upsets some Americans, I think you will find your attitude upsets quite a few as well.

It upsets more than just Americans. It upsets most people who have a knowledge of American history, myself included.

It's quite an insult to call all the people who use the confederate flag as racist or lacking in history knowledge.

It represents much more than what you singluarly choose to recognise. Those who fail to recognise that give insult to those that don't.

If someone uses the flag to represent slavery or a far right group then yes.....tell them no thank you we don't want that here.

If someone waves it because they are southern American, anti government or whatever it is.....Then fair enough.

Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not.

You can't. Offence is taken, rather than given so there will always be someone, somewhere, that will find something that they don't like.
Flags will always stir up problems as they will mean something to one person and something else to another, generally neither group will accept the others view either.

"They got his own song 'He's just too good for you', it's quite unbelievable but when you see it and he's facing up someone - I actually feel sorry for them, 'Cos he actually is" - Ian Holloway

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npn Crowborough 14 Jul 14 5.21pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.47pm Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.31pm Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.26pm Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not. We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not. It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm) Are you happy for say 30% of American viewers (random figure I know) to think that Palace tolerate racist symbolism at their matches? I think to just regard it as a racism symbol is ill educated.....Millions of Americans watched Dukes of Hazard didn't they? I don't remember any slavers in that show. The flag isn't just one thing as many would like to believe.....So I'm a bit non plussed to be honest. If it's flown again, find out, and if the person's a twit chuck him out. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.48pm) I have no idea what the intent behind the flag is. The only person who knows that for sure is the person flying it (I rather suspect they just like the flag and it's red and blue), but there's a lot of simplification going on here - "supporter of the south" = "white supremacist" Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Apu is applying for US citizenship: Proctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War? Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter-- Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery. Apu: Slavery it is, sir.
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npn

Crowborough 14 Jul 14 5.21pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.31pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Jul 2014 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 4.12pm

Agreed, but how do you stop American viewers from thinking it's being waved for the wrong reasons, even if is not.

We can't......Sometimes they will be right and sometimes not.

It isn't really the biggest problem......Next time it's waved at Selhurst we should find out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.27pm)

Are you happy for say 30% of American viewers (random figure I know) to think that Palace tolerate racist symbolism at their matches?

I think to just regard it as a racism symbol is ill educated.....Millions of Americans watched Dukes of Hazard didn't they? I don't remember any slavers in that show.

The flag isn't just one thing as many would like to believe.....So I'm a bit non plussed to be honest.

If it's flown again, find out, and if the person's a twit chuck him out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jul 2014 4.48pm)

I have no idea what the intent behind the flag is. The only person who knows that for sure is the person flying it (I rather suspect they just like the flag and it's red and blue), but there's a lot of simplification going on here - "supporter of the south" = "white supremacist"

Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Apu is applying for US citizenship:

Proctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War?
Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter--
Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery.
Apu: Slavery it is, sir.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 14 Jul 14 5.25pm
Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 14 Jul 14 5.25pm

Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...

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