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nickgusset  Shizzlehurst 12 Jun 15 8.22pm |
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Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 8.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.02pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.27pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 7.11pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 6.55pm
Quote legaleagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.34pm
Nick G and Tux are well capable of answering for themselves if they want to... I am of a different religion to you.If you moved out of your village/small town because I moved in,just because of my religion (as opposed to what I'm like as a person) yes I'd think you right wing (and a complete word associated with self-administered sexual satisfaction).You would no doubt think of yourself as a reasonable non-right wing bloke.You are entitled to your opinion,just as I,most certainly, am entitled to mine Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 6.44pm) You are of a different religion are you; which one I wonder? As I have said a couple of times, I would move out at a certain point - when the character of the area had changed to such an extent that I would prefer to live in an area that still had the characteristics that I would prefer to live with. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I am all for people being able to express their opinions. It is the new left/lib politically correct establishment that increasingly seeks to curb such expression. How so? Examples?
Totally agree with that. As for examples: 2013, an 85-year-old woman was arrested, handcuffed and subsequently fined for saying to some people 'go back to your own country'. Another example that quickly springs to mind is John Terry being fined and banned by a football kangaroo court for using the word 'black'. There are many other cases of so called 'racially aggravated' prosecutions. The Terry thing has been done to death. He should have just used the word C**t without preceding it with black. In using 'black' he stepped over what I would term as a socially acceptable boundary. Not the point - it is a good example of the new politically correct establishment curbing free speech.
However, the reason Terry was deemed unacceptable is because we have moved away from the 'Love thy neighbour' attitude where abuse because of a persons skin colour was acceptable. Despite it being literally correct in the Terry case, Black 'c**t' is not socially acceptable therefore derogatory. Some call it PC gone mad. I don't. Edited by nickgusset (12 Jun 2015 8.23pm)
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 dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 12 Jun 15 8.33pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.22pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 8.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.02pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.27pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 7.11pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 6.55pm
Quote legaleagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.34pm
Nick G and Tux are well capable of answering for themselves if they want to... I am of a different religion to you.If you moved out of your village/small town because I moved in,just because of my religion (as opposed to what I'm like as a person) yes I'd think you right wing (and a complete word associated with self-administered sexual satisfaction).You would no doubt think of yourself as a reasonable non-right wing bloke.You are entitled to your opinion,just as I,most certainly, am entitled to mine Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 6.44pm) You are of a different religion are you; which one I wonder? As I have said a couple of times, I would move out at a certain point - when the character of the area had changed to such an extent that I would prefer to live in an area that still had the characteristics that I would prefer to live with. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I am all for people being able to express their opinions. It is the new left/lib politically correct establishment that increasingly seeks to curb such expression. How so? Examples?
Totally agree with that. As for examples: 2013, an 85-year-old woman was arrested, handcuffed and subsequently fined for saying to some people 'go back to your own country'. Another example that quickly springs to mind is John Terry being fined and banned by a football kangaroo court for using the word 'black'. There are many other cases of so called 'racially aggravated' prosecutions. The Terry thing has been done to death. He should have just used the word C**t without preceding it with black. In using 'black' he stepped over what I would term as a socially acceptable boundary. Not the point - it is a good example of the new politically correct establishment curbing free speech.
However, the reason Terry was deemed unacceptable is because we have moved away from the 'Love thy neighbour' attitude where abuse because of a persons skin colour was acceptable. Despite it being literally correct in the Terry case, Black 'c**t' is not socially acceptable therefore derogatory. Some call it PC gone mad. I don't. Edited by nickgusset (12 Jun 2015 8.23pm) Essentially agree nick, however I do think it has gone a bit the other way with how touchy people get about what in essence is taking the piss, It's still acceptable for me to call my mate at work a ginger c??t but if I used the same vocab as Mr Terry I'd be out of a job. I still believe a lot of the outrage generated by using "racist" terms or phrases is down to the sensitivity of the person its being aimed at. Just my opinion.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 12 Jun 15 8.48pm |
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Quote dannyh at 12 Jun 2015 8.33pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.22pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 8.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.02pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.27pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 7.11pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 6.55pm
Quote legaleagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.34pm
Nick G and Tux are well capable of answering for themselves if they want to... I am of a different religion to you.If you moved out of your village/small town because I moved in,just because of my religion (as opposed to what I'm like as a person) yes I'd think you right wing (and a complete word associated with self-administered sexual satisfaction).You would no doubt think of yourself as a reasonable non-right wing bloke.You are entitled to your opinion,just as I,most certainly, am entitled to mine Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 6.44pm) You are of a different religion are you; which one I wonder? As I have said a couple of times, I would move out at a certain point - when the character of the area had changed to such an extent that I would prefer to live in an area that still had the characteristics that I would prefer to live with. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I am all for people being able to express their opinions. It is the new left/lib politically correct establishment that increasingly seeks to curb such expression. How so? Examples?
Totally agree with that. As for examples: 2013, an 85-year-old woman was arrested, handcuffed and subsequently fined for saying to some people 'go back to your own country'. Another example that quickly springs to mind is John Terry being fined and banned by a football kangaroo court for using the word 'black'. There are many other cases of so called 'racially aggravated' prosecutions. The Terry thing has been done to death. He should have just used the word C**t without preceding it with black. In using 'black' he stepped over what I would term as a socially acceptable boundary. Not the point - it is a good example of the new politically correct establishment curbing free speech.
However, the reason Terry was deemed unacceptable is because we have moved away from the 'Love thy neighbour' attitude where abuse because of a persons skin colour was acceptable. Despite it being literally correct in the Terry case, Black 'c**t' is not socially acceptable therefore derogatory. Some call it PC gone mad. I don't. Edited by nickgusset (12 Jun 2015 8.23pm) Essentially agree nick, however I do think it has gone a bit the other way with how touchy people get about what in essence is taking the piss, It's still acceptable for me to call my mate at work a ginger c??t but if I used the same vocab as Mr Terry I'd be out of a job. I still believe a lot of the outrage generated by using "racist" terms or phrases is down to the sensitivity of the person its being aimed at. Just my opinion.
I think it's fair to say mates taking the piss out of each other is a sign of camaraderie.
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| derben 12 Jun 15 9.34pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.22pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 8.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.02pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.27pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 7.11pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 6.55pm
Quote legaleagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.34pm
Nick G and Tux are well capable of answering for themselves if they want to... I am of a different religion to you.If you moved out of your village/small town because I moved in,just because of my religion (as opposed to what I'm like as a person) yes I'd think you right wing (and a complete word associated with self-administered sexual satisfaction).You would no doubt think of yourself as a reasonable non-right wing bloke.You are entitled to your opinion,just as I,most certainly, am entitled to mine Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 6.44pm) You are of a different religion are you; which one I wonder? As I have said a couple of times, I would move out at a certain point - when the character of the area had changed to such an extent that I would prefer to live in an area that still had the characteristics that I would prefer to live with. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I am all for people being able to express their opinions. It is the new left/lib politically correct establishment that increasingly seeks to curb such expression. How so? Examples?
Totally agree with that. As for examples: 2013, an 85-year-old woman was arrested, handcuffed and subsequently fined for saying to some people 'go back to your own country'. Another example that quickly springs to mind is John Terry being fined and banned by a football kangaroo court for using the word 'black'. There are many other cases of so called 'racially aggravated' prosecutions. The Terry thing has been done to death. He should have just used the word C**t without preceding it with black. In using 'black' he stepped over what I would term as a socially acceptable boundary. Not the point - it is a good example of the new politically correct establishment curbing free speech.
However, the reason Terry was deemed unacceptable is because we have moved away from the 'Love thy neighbour' attitude where abuse because of a persons skin colour was acceptable. Despite it being literally correct in the Terry case, Black 'c**t' is not socially acceptable therefore derogatory. Some call it PC gone mad. I don't. Edited by nickgusset (12 Jun 2015 8.23pm) But it is clearly a curbing of free speech. Do you think the arrest, handcuffing and prosecution of an 85-year-old woman stating her opinion that someone should go back to their own country was a curbing of free speech.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 12 Jun 15 9.48pm |
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Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 9.34pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.22pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 8.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.02pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.27pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 7.11pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 6.55pm
Quote legaleagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.34pm
Nick G and Tux are well capable of answering for themselves if they want to... I am of a different religion to you.If you moved out of your village/small town because I moved in,just because of my religion (as opposed to what I'm like as a person) yes I'd think you right wing (and a complete word associated with self-administered sexual satisfaction).You would no doubt think of yourself as a reasonable non-right wing bloke.You are entitled to your opinion,just as I,most certainly, am entitled to mine Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 6.44pm) You are of a different religion are you; which one I wonder? As I have said a couple of times, I would move out at a certain point - when the character of the area had changed to such an extent that I would prefer to live in an area that still had the characteristics that I would prefer to live with. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I am all for people being able to express their opinions. It is the new left/lib politically correct establishment that increasingly seeks to curb such expression. How so? Examples?
Totally agree with that. As for examples: 2013, an 85-year-old woman was arrested, handcuffed and subsequently fined for saying to some people 'go back to your own country'. Another example that quickly springs to mind is John Terry being fined and banned by a football kangaroo court for using the word 'black'. There are many other cases of so called 'racially aggravated' prosecutions. The Terry thing has been done to death. He should have just used the word C**t without preceding it with black. In using 'black' he stepped over what I would term as a socially acceptable boundary. Not the point - it is a good example of the new politically correct establishment curbing free speech.
However, the reason Terry was deemed unacceptable is because we have moved away from the 'Love thy neighbour' attitude where abuse because of a persons skin colour was acceptable. Despite it being literally correct in the Terry case, Black 'c**t' is not socially acceptable therefore derogatory. Some call it PC gone mad. I don't. Edited by nickgusset (12 Jun 2015 8.23pm) But it is clearly a curbing of free speech. Do you think the arrest, handcuffing and prosecution of an 85-year-old woman stating her opinion that someone should go back to their own country was a curbing of free speech.
Do you believe in freedom of expression?
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| derben 12 Jun 15 9.58pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 9.48pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 9.34pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.22pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 8.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 8.02pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.27pm
Quote nickgusset at 12 Jun 2015 7.11pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 6.55pm
Quote legaleagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.34pm
Nick G and Tux are well capable of answering for themselves if they want to... I am of a different religion to you.If you moved out of your village/small town because I moved in,just because of my religion (as opposed to what I'm like as a person) yes I'd think you right wing (and a complete word associated with self-administered sexual satisfaction).You would no doubt think of yourself as a reasonable non-right wing bloke.You are entitled to your opinion,just as I,most certainly, am entitled to mine Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 6.44pm) You are of a different religion are you; which one I wonder? As I have said a couple of times, I would move out at a certain point - when the character of the area had changed to such an extent that I would prefer to live in an area that still had the characteristics that I would prefer to live with. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I am all for people being able to express their opinions. It is the new left/lib politically correct establishment that increasingly seeks to curb such expression. How so? Examples?
Totally agree with that. As for examples: 2013, an 85-year-old woman was arrested, handcuffed and subsequently fined for saying to some people 'go back to your own country'. Another example that quickly springs to mind is John Terry being fined and banned by a football kangaroo court for using the word 'black'. There are many other cases of so called 'racially aggravated' prosecutions. The Terry thing has been done to death. He should have just used the word C**t without preceding it with black. In using 'black' he stepped over what I would term as a socially acceptable boundary. Not the point - it is a good example of the new politically correct establishment curbing free speech.
However, the reason Terry was deemed unacceptable is because we have moved away from the 'Love thy neighbour' attitude where abuse because of a persons skin colour was acceptable. Despite it being literally correct in the Terry case, Black 'c**t' is not socially acceptable therefore derogatory. Some call it PC gone mad. I don't. Edited by nickgusset (12 Jun 2015 8.23pm) But it is clearly a curbing of free speech. Do you think the arrest, handcuffing and prosecution of an 85-year-old woman stating her opinion that someone should go back to their own country was a curbing of free speech.
Do you believe in freedom of expression? From what you are saying, you appear to now agree with my original contention that the new politically correct establishment has increasingly curbed freedom of speech. The serial nudist is a bit different from free speech as he is breaking indecent exposure laws that have been in force for many, many years. The politically correct establishment are making new laws to restrict freedoms that we have had for many, many years.
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| legaleagle 12 Jun 15 10.08pm |
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Curbing free speech has been part of good old English law for many centuries..the very embodiment of "traditional values".We have never had total "freedom of speech".That's why we have defamation laws.What might be curbed "ie defamatory or not"changes over time.We have much more "freedom of speech" than historically. Over the past 50 years we have I think largely moved as a society overall to regard racial abuse as inappropriate. We've moved a long way generally from the attitudes towards immigrants from the W. Indies,Africa and Asia in the 50's/60's/70's .We see in our own team some of the the fruits of this immigration and attitudes to whom is regarded as "one of our own". Would Derben move out if Puncheon,Zaha.Bolasie,Campbell etc moved into his village small/town? If he did,what would most HOL members think about it?Would he regard Punch as "one of our own?" But I Digress, Anyone can find examples of situations where the application of virtually any law in a few cases might be carried out in an inappropriate way.In the case of the old lady,she yelled it at random muslims quietly going about their business leaving a mosque.Perhaps the police might have just asked her to stop.They could have arrested her simply for conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace,another centuries old law.So,that would have "curbed her free speech" anyway. The inappropriateness might be said to relate more to how the police dealt with her on the spot than the fact of there being a law against racially aggravated conduct.The merits of football fan violence being unlawful are not the same as the police going in "over the top" on some occasions if things kick off. That doesn't mean having a law against aggravated racial abuse is a bad idea per se. HOL has a rule against posts that are racially offensive .Should the Mods drop it? Is it a good thing in principle to be able to give people racial abuse or a bad thing? Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 10.22pm)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 12 Jun 15 10.09pm |
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I believe the law in the case of racial abuse is one that is needed in a civilised society. I don't think that's just a left wing ideal either. I'd imagine most people would think it's not ok to racially abuse someone. Edited by nickgusset (12 Jun 2015 10.11pm) Edited by nickgusset (12 Jun 2015 10.12pm)
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| legaleagle 12 Jun 15 10.11pm |
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Personally,I agree with you 100% on this.Others may disagee with me or with you as to what constitutes a "civilised society".
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| derben 12 Jun 15 10.19pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 12 Jun 2015 10.08pm
Curbing free speech has been part of good old English law for many centuries..the very embodiment of "traditional values".We have never had total "freedom of speech".That's why we have defamation laws.What might be curbed "ie defamatory or not"changes over time.We have much more "freedom of speech" than historically. Over the past 50 years we have I think largely moved as a society overall to regard racial abuse as inappropriate. We've moved a long way generally from the attitudes towards immigrants from the W. Indies,Africa and Asia in the 5-'s/60's/70's .We see in our own team some of the the fruits of this immigration and attitudes to whom is regarded as "one of our own". Would Derben move out in Puncheon,Zaha.Bolasie,Campbell etc moved into his village small/town? If he did,what would most HOL members think about it?Would he regard Punch as "one of our own?" But I Digress, Anyone can find examples of situations where the application of virtually any law in a few cases might be inappropriate.In the case of the old lady,she yelled it at random muslims quietly going about their business leaving a mosque.Perhaps the police might have just asked her to stop.They could have arrested her simply for conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace,another centuries old law.So,that would have "curbed her free speech" anyway. That doesn't mean having a law against aggravated racial abuse is a bad idea per se. HOL has a rule against posts that are racially offensive .Should the Mods drop it? Is it a good thing in principle to be able to give people racial abuse or a bad thing? Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 10.10pm) As I have repeatedly said, I would move if I found the character of where I lived (whether it be a hamlet, village, town or city) changed in such a way that I would prefer to live elsewhere. Why do you disapprove of that so much? You imply that it is racist to move one's abode. You also have not commented on whether communities in say Brixton, are racist because they clearly prefer to live with people of their own race and culture. Do you think it was appropriate for the police to handcuff an 85-year-old woman. Do you not think a verbal warning would have been sufficient. In any case, how is it racist to tell people to 'go back to their own country'. When I attend games where Palace are playing away, the home supporters regularly tell me to go home and call me a 'bum', and yell that they 'hate cockneys'. Yet nobody is arrested and handcuffed for this? Why not?
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| legaleagle 12 Jun 15 10.33pm |
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If you re-read my post you would see I would hope that I think the police were OTT in going about their business on that occasion. Doesn't mean I think what she was doing should necessarily be lawful.I explained why this is distinct from a law being OTT per se. Your away game examples have nothing to do with racism.Making monkey noises at an opposition player (like some fans overseas regularly do) would have a lot to do with racism. It is, I would have thought, plainly racist (discriminating negatively on grounds of race)to discriminate against one's neighbours on grounds of race by choosing not to live amongst them based on what race they are.If that's not being a racist,hard to see what could be.Does that mean there should be a law against you moving? No.I think many of the neighbours would be well pleased to see the back of you in such circumstances. If you disagree,so be it.I don't think any amount of rational argument on my part would be likely to persuade you otherwise Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 10.36pm)
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| derben 12 Jun 15 10.38pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 12 Jun 2015 10.33pm
If you re-read my post you would see I would hope that I think the police were OTT in going about their business on that occasion. Doesn't mean I think what she was doing should necessarily be lawful.I explained why this is distinct from a law being OTT per se. Your away game examples have nothing to do with racism.Making monkey noises at an opposition player (like some fans overseas regularly do) would have a lot to do with racism. It is, I would have thought, plainly racist (discriminating negatively on grounds of race)to discriminate against one's neighbours on grounds of race by choosing not to live amongst them based on what race they are.If that's not being a racist,hard to see what could be.Does that mean there should be a law against you moving? No.I think many of the neighbours would be well pleased to see the back of you in such circumstances. If you disagree,so be it.I don't think any amount of rational argument on my part would be likely to persuade you otherwise Edited by legaleagle (12 Jun 2015 10.36pm) Why was the woman racist, she merely told them to go home - just like the football fans told me to.
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