Hiroshima
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 Stirlingsays  07 Aug 15 2.05pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 07 Aug 2015 12.58pm
I don't mean that at all. I believe that it was the right course of action and that you and sundry can judge the situation through revisionist glasses all you like, however, the reality of the situation was that it had to happen.
So you are basically saying that because you don't believe anything other than 'unconditional surrender' was good enough that it was justifiable to vapourise and burn thousands upon thousands of women, children and babies. The demonstration of the bomb on an unpopulated area would have made things very plain.....It wasn't even tried. I don't see how a conditional surrender....Which Japan had asked the USSR to mediate.... couldn't have involved significant limitation of fighting forces and also significant American control of their economy and government. The lessons of the deal given to Germany in WW1 wouldn't have been repeated. I'm sorry Matt.....But outside of retaliation... the use of the Atom bomb can have no justification. There were definitely alternatives.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 07 Aug 15 2.11pm |
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Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 07 Aug 2015 1.57pm
No jackboots perhaps but dominance in Europe via hegemony......A parliament that controls a reduced amount of laws.....A peaceful self imposed Vichy rule.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 07 Aug 15 2.20pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 12.09pm
You have named a few deluded individuals, but I'm talking about a large numbers of people. Yes to use epithets like left and right is simple minded of course but the fact is that the left/union mentality still resisted the war effort in many cases because they put their own interests before the nations. The link I provided which you conveniently ignored just demonstrates that the same attitudes still prevails. The left always trying to claim the moral high ground but ultimately always the spanner in the works. Most not from wiki;its an area I have an interest in anyway The point ,IMO, being that it is you always claiming the moral high ground for the "right".My posts were aimed at your focus solely on "the left",about whom you cant resist another silly dig above and lumping all kinds of views into one supposedly solidified bloc.A minority on the "right" were dodgy 1930's onwards,a minority on the left were dodgy 1939-41.Two wrongs make two wrongs,not only the wrong you want to see.And,of course any suggestion certain inappropriate traits of such minorities being replicated (such as the widespread antipathy towards non Anglo-Saxons prevalent on the right in the 30's) today are plain silly to make if limited only to what you think are "faults" of the left whilst being blind to equivalency on "the right"
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| Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 07 Aug 15 2.25pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 07 Aug 2015 12.26pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 9.25am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Aug 2015 7.51am
Quote Kermit8 at 06 Aug 2015 10.16pm
Quote matt_himself at 06 Aug 2015 8.19pm
Quote Kermit8 at 06 Aug 2015 8.31am
It was a real life medical experiment without anaesthetic by the US. They could have quite easily have dropped the bombs 40 miles from Tokyo in a non-populated area and warned that the city would be next on the list if they didn't surrender. The population of Hiroshima at the time was mostly kids, women and old people as the men were away soldiering. Something the US would also have obviously known. A heinous act. The Japanese, due to their belief that their Emperor was a God, we're not going to surrender. Bear in mind that up until 1974 there were Japanese soldiers in places like Micronesia still fighting the war and when they were found by locals, they persisted in killing them as they had not had instruction to down weapons. Plus the Japanese human rights record in the war was barbaric. They tortured and raped at will. Chinese, Koreans, Malay, Singaporean, etc., they didn't care. POW's were treated as sub human scum. Additionally, the Japanese weren't afraid to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of their own. The use of nuclear weapons was the last resort but in a situation like that, where you have an enemy who is so intractable, what do you do? Talk and provide humanitarian aid in the hope they bow down?
My old library master had been tortured by the Japs and couldn't speak save for a desperate rasp. They had been brutalized into savagery akin to the Hitler Youth being brainwashed with 'strength through joy' and other zeitgeist phrases. read about the power the Emperor had over the Japanese. The bombs were dropped to save lives as the Emperor employed a scorched earth policy and would rather see his country and people wiped out than surrender. However the bombs changed opinion. Not nice, hope we never have to use them again but ultimately the correct course of action. The US had essentially beaten Japan back to the mainland, its navy was almost incapable of operation and total air superiority could have been achieved within a few days. The US had other options, but it did have a super weapon, that had cost a massive fortune to produce, that no one else in the world possessed. I don't really think the decision was taken for the good of POWs, Japans future, negating the necessity of an invasion, but because it would effectively demonstrate the capability of the US militarily, probably force an unconditional surrender (that was only a matter of time - Japan would probably have accepted a conditional surrender). If Japan was truly committed to a everyman to the death, for the glory of the Emperor, scorched earth policy, then Nagasaki and Hiroshima would have made no difference to that. The US were also quite keen on covering up the full effects of radiation poisioning after the war, and the consequences to those affected by the bombs. I think its hard to escape the conclusion that it remains one of the single most horrific acts of war targeted at a mostly civilian population. I don't think you can really ever get away from the fact that it really was a war crime by any stretch of the imagination; it worked out for the best, probably, all told, but its hard to really justify any situation in which a country deliberately targets and kills at least 80,000 in a single indiscriminate attack.
I think you can get away from the 'fact' that it was a 'war crime' because it wasn't. It was an act of war brought about by the circumstances of the time.
"Wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including... wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health.... Hiroshima was a war crime. So was the targeting of civilians and non-combatants during the Blitz and the British bombing of Hamburg and Dresden. Anyone with an interest should read Among the Dead Cities by AC Grayling
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| TheJudge 07 Aug 15 2.42pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 07 Aug 2015 2.20pm
Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 12.09pm
You have named a few deluded individuals, but I'm talking about a large numbers of people. Yes to use epithets like left and right is simple minded of course but the fact is that the left/union mentality still resisted the war effort in many cases because they put their own interests before the nations. The link I provided which you conveniently ignored just demonstrates that the same attitudes still prevails. The left always trying to claim the moral high ground but ultimately always the spanner in the works. Most not from wiki;its an area I have an interest in anyway The point ,IMO, being that it is you always claiming the moral high ground for the "right".My posts were aimed at your focus solely on "the left",about whom you cant resist another silly dig above and lumping all kinds of views into one supposedly solidified bloc.A minority on the "right" were dodgy 1930's onwards,a minority on the left were dodgy 1939-41.Two wrongs make two wrongs,not only the wrong you want to see.And,of course any suggestion certain inappropriate traits of such minorities being replicated (such as the widespread antipathy towards non Anglo-Saxons prevalent on the right in the 30's) today are plain silly to make if limited only to what you think are "faults" of the left whilst being blind to equivalency on "the right"
This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs.
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| legaleagle 07 Aug 15 2.52pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 07 Aug 2015 2.11pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 07 Aug 2015 1.57pm
No jackboots perhaps but dominance in Europe via hegemony......A parliament that controls a reduced amount of laws.....A peaceful self imposed Vichy rule.
We (and Germany) live under somewhat more of an American hegemony today than a German one (not a German war aim),though you are right Germany is the pre-eminent economic power in Europe, but was always likely to overtake Britain in that way,even had there been no WW2. More a consequence perhaps of post-war targeted Marshall Aid and the decline of the economic benefits of Empire.The US was v keen post-war that Britain should be weaker so as to open up the empire to US goods and get more natural resources. Let's look at a couple of Hitler's aims: lebensraum for Germanic people's by expanding to the east with mass Germanic settlement and legal slave-like subservience of slavic peoples.Today's German-led EU reality? I think not. Increasing racial and ethnic intolerance throughout Europe based on racial purity: Is that a consequence of a German-led EU today,or more associated with attitudes on anti-EU fringes?
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| Stirlingsays 07 Aug 15 2.57pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 07 Aug 2015 9.47am
Quote Stirlingsays at 07 Aug 2015 5.56am
[
We had assisted the US to develop the bomb and in Triumph and Tragedy,Churchill later wrote of feeling at Potsdam after the decision had been made in principle to use it, that he had a vision, "fair and bright indeed it seemed"... "of the end of the whole war in one or two violent shocks." So,not sure you can simply pin any historical moral culpability (if that's what you are going) on Truman and leave Churchill completely out of the equation. As Truman gave the order.....I think it's churlish to suggest that full culpability isn't his and the hawks in his adminstration. Churchill had no say on how the US conducted the war in the pacific. Churchill's form on indiscriminate bombing isn't great but he was known to have bulked at mass civilian deaths from the Dresden bombing....Regarding it as over the top. I would imagine if Churchill had been in control of the bomb then a conditional surrender would have least been on the table. I'm a hawk myself......But deliberate civilian bombing isn't something I can justify. The only real argument against me that I could consider as reasonable would be that I'm applying a modern day military mindset to another age. That's true....But the sheer scale....And the fact that only unconditional surrender was acceptable makes the decision a war crime in my book. A war crime.....In a war filled with them.....Unfortunately most are.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 07 Aug 15 3.05pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 07 Aug 2015 2.52pm
So,you are seriously suggesting there is an equivalence between what we would have lived under if Hitler had won (or Halifax had done a deal in 1940) and where we are today in the EU? We (and Germany) live under somewhat more of an American hegemony today than a German one (not a German war aim),though you are right Germany is the pre-eminent economic power in Europe, but was always likely to overtake Britain in that way,even had there been no WW2. More a consequence perhaps of post-war targeted Marshall Aid and the decline of the economic benefits of Empire.The US was v keen post-war that Britain should be weaker so as to open up the empire to US goods and get more natural resources. Let's look at a couple of Hitler's aims: lebensraum for Germanic people's by expanding to the east with mass Germanic settlement and legal slave-like subservience of slavic peoples.Today's German-led EU reality? I think not. Increasing racial and ethnic intolerance throughout Europe based on racial purity: Is that a consequence of a German-led EU today,or more associated with attitudes on anti-EU fringes? I didn't suggest an equivalence because obviously there are significant differences....Didn't you read the 'no jackboots, self imposed' bit? The EU we have now would have been seventy years after a Hitler victory. We have no idea how exactly things would have progressed within that time. Would national socialism have lasted....It would have probably gone the same way as communism in Russia...But there's no way of knowing. But what we do know is that in the modern age we have a Europe dominated by Germany with most of the EU subservient to its decisions. So frankly Legal....the EU supporter, I'm happy to tell you that this is a soft form of control from aboard.....Like I said, with no jackboots.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 07 Aug 15 3.05pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm
This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs.
I've only had a chance today to read all this today and up until two pages ago, it's been the best discussion on the HOL in recent memory. The reason is that everyone appeared to be treating opposing views with respect and not just jumping on the left/right bandwagon. I even managed to learn a thing or two. Kudos to most of the posters. Please try not to ruin it Judge. It's opinions, it's never going to be 'solved' but it makes for a great thread. It's not a left/right issue (which always kills all other discussions on here)
Lend me a Tenor 31 May to 3 June 2017 John McIntosh Arts Centre with Superfly in the chorus |
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| Stirlingsays 07 Aug 15 3.12pm |
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Quote Sedlescombe at 07 Aug 2015 2.25pm
Hiroshima was a war crime. So was the targeting of civilians and non-combatants during the Blitz and the British bombing of Hamburg and Dresden. Anyone with an interest should read Among the Dead Cities by AC Grayling
We tend to not concentrate on our own and instead look at our enemies....that's human nature. In fairness to us, Hitler's obsession with the Jews and Japan's attitude to defeated enemies meant that their war crimes were larger and easier to point to. Is it ok to say that our war crimes were far lesser than theirs?.....It seems childish to state it....though its true. A crime is a crime regardless......We can't bring back the lives of the innocent....But we can recognise a spade for what it is....a spade and own and accept what happened. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Aug 2015 3.15pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Y Ddraig Goch  In The Crowd 07 Aug 15 3.24pm |
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Innocents (as well as innocence) will always die in war. Well at least up until 1991 when they then became collateral damage. How innocent is innocent? I have always believed that Hitler, Hirohito, Mussolini, Franco etc would never have been able to do what they did without the backing of the majority of the people. Indeed we praise the Great British Blitz spirit (An example of propaganda over reality) My dad fought in the war, I am very proud of his war record, he died when I was very young so I never got chance to discuss it with him. He was predominantly in the Med but did serve in the far east at the end of the war. As a Liberal and given his experiences, I do wonder what he thought about things like Hiroshima.
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| Stirlingsays 07 Aug 15 3.30pm |
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Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 07 Aug 2015 3.24pm
Innocents (as well as innocence) will always die in war. Well at least up until 1991 when they then became collateral damage. How innocent is innocent? I have always believed that Hitler, Hirohito, Mussolini, Franco etc would never have been able to do what they did without the backing of the majority of the people. Indeed we praise the Great British Blitz spirit (An example of propaganda over reality) My dad fought in the war, I am very proud of his war record, he died when I was very young so I never got chance to discuss it with him. He was predominantly in the Med but did serve in the far east at the end of the war. As a Liberal and given his experiences, I do wonder what he thought about things like Hiroshima.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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