Pensioners up next on the Government hit list?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Oct 15 10.21am
Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.03am Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 9.49am Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 9.33am Protected, cossetted group sitting fat and happy on final salary pension schemes that they didn't pay nearly enough for and massive housing equity growth. In the very pleasant position of being able to dole out their largesse to the coming generation as they see fit, maintaining control over them. And they can avoid inheritance tax if they do that too. I see no reason they should get special treatment either way but I would err on the side of redistribution of wealth rather than giving them free bus journeys and fuel benefits without means testing. I actually fail to see why they are exempt from National Insurance payments (even when they are still working), they take so much out of the system it's hard to understand why they should consider that they have 'already paid their dues'. The politic of envy. Complete nonsense. As it happens I am on the edge of being in this group. You tell me why you don't pay NIC if you work after retirement age Jamie. You tell me why it's fair that our housing stock, especially in London, is completely tied up by older people who - uniquely - happened to buy before a boom. Young people are the ones that get screwed every time. They will never get anything like what this group got. The pensioner generation is sitting on massive, unpaid for, benefits and taking daily from the pockets of the coming generations. If it's the politics of envy, does that mean you think we can all get the benefits this group has had? Not likely is it. But of course this group is untouchable and makes sure its voice is heard by politicians who rarely dare touch it. Life isn't fair. I agree young people get screwed all time, along with the poor and the disabled. But that's not a justification for then just targeting other groups in society - especially in the way the think tank proposes. The job of government is to regulate and provide a basis for all its people. Could it be that actually we need to raise revenue? Personally I believe that the governments going back at least 20 years have served the desires of corporate influences, and the wealthy, and delivered the costs to average individual in society. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 05 Oct 15 10.21am

Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.03am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 9.49am

Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 9.33am

Protected, cossetted group sitting fat and happy on final salary pension schemes that they didn't pay nearly enough for and massive housing equity growth.

In the very pleasant position of being able to dole out their largesse to the coming generation as they see fit, maintaining control over them. And they can avoid inheritance tax if they do that too.

I see no reason they should get special treatment either way but I would err on the side of redistribution of wealth rather than giving them free bus journeys and fuel benefits without means testing.

I actually fail to see why they are exempt from National Insurance payments (even when they are still working), they take so much out of the system it's hard to understand why they should consider that they have 'already paid their dues'.

The politic of envy.

Complete nonsense. As it happens I am on the edge of being in this group. You tell me why you don't pay NIC if you work after retirement age Jamie. You tell me why it's fair that our housing stock, especially in London, is completely tied up by older people who - uniquely - happened to buy before a boom. Young people are the ones that get screwed every time. They will never get anything like what this group got. The pensioner generation is sitting on massive, unpaid for, benefits and taking daily from the pockets of the coming generations.

If it's the politics of envy, does that mean you think we can all get the benefits this group has had? Not likely is it. But of course this group is untouchable and makes sure its voice is heard by politicians who rarely dare touch it.

Life isn't fair. I agree young people get screwed all time, along with the poor and the disabled. But that's not a justification for then just targeting other groups in society - especially in the way the think tank proposes.

The job of government is to regulate and provide a basis for all its people. Could it be that actually we need to raise revenue? Personally I believe that the governments going back at least 20 years have served the desires of corporate influences, and the wealthy, and delivered the costs to average individual in society.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hoof Hearted 05 Oct 15 10.22am
Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.11am Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 9.58am 1.6million pensioners are living with very little money and in poverty in the UK. Cosseted? Wealthy? This lot? And no mention of their benefits being protected by this odious Tory Tax Alliance Think Tank. Still they will be dead soon. So why would anyone object if the other 11 million are asked to help look after them? When their final salary pension plans were designed they were living 20 years less. People in their 50s retired on 40 60th schemes, how come that group doesn't have to work and earns two thirds what they earned when they were working. No overheads, mortgages paid off, no travel to work costs. And those with these pensions ducked austerity altogether despite their pension legacies crippling both the public and private sectors. Look at the average age of those taking holiday cruises. A sea-anchor to the progress of the working man or woman. I suppose you would rather see this wealth taken away from this group of hardworking people to be redistributed to hoodie chavs to spend on drugs/fag/booze etc or give it to the influx of economic migrants that just turn up and expect the life of riley. Both examples I give have contributed nothing to society unlike pensioners. What a horribly skewed vision of life you must have, begrudging old people living a bit after they have worked 50+ years paying tax/NI and having put up with the blitz and rationing. The things that you are envious of they have PAID for themselves.
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Hoof Hearted 05 Oct 15 10.22am

Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.11am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 9.58am

1.6million pensioners are living with very little money and in poverty in the UK.

Cosseted? Wealthy? This lot?

And no mention of their benefits being protected by this odious Tory Tax Alliance Think Tank.

Still they will be dead soon.

So why would anyone object if the other 11 million are asked to help look after them? When their final salary pension plans were designed they were living 20 years less. People in their 50s retired on 40 60th schemes, how come that group doesn't have to work and earns two thirds what they earned when they were working. No overheads, mortgages paid off, no travel to work costs. And those with these pensions ducked austerity altogether despite their pension legacies crippling both the public and private sectors. Look at the average age of those taking holiday cruises. A sea-anchor to the progress of the working man or woman.

I suppose you would rather see this wealth taken away from this group of hardworking people to be redistributed to hoodie chavs to spend on drugs/fag/booze etc or give it to the influx of economic migrants that just turn up and expect the life of riley. Both examples I give have contributed nothing to society unlike pensioners.

What a horribly skewed vision of life you must have, begrudging old people living a bit after they have worked 50+ years paying tax/NI and having put up with the blitz and rationing. The things that you are envious of they have PAID for themselves.

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Mapletree Croydon 05 Oct 15 10.24am
Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 10.17am Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.11am Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 9.58am 1.6million pensioners are living with very little money and in poverty in the UK. Cosseted? Wealthy? This lot? And no mention of their benefits being protected by this odious Tory Tax Alliance Think Tank. Still they will be dead soon. So why would anyone object if the other 11 million are asked to help look after them? When their final salary pension plans were designed they were living 20 years less. People in their 50s retired on 40 60th schemes, how come that group doesn't have to work and earns two thirds what they earned when they were working. No overheads, mortgages paid off, no travel to work costs. And those with these pensions ducked austerity altogether despite their pension legacies crippling both the public and private sectors. Look at the average age of those taking holiday cruises. A sea-anchor to the progress of the working man or woman. I am not disagreeing. My initial post with the quotes was to highlight a frankly disgusting attitude and a potential attack on the poor, the sick and not well off again for which this government has indecent form. There was no mention of means testing by the think tank which leads me to believe they want all pensioners to take a hit. And I am not disagreeing that many pensioners are in deep trouble and it's getting deeper. It just doesn't seem fair that it is so polarised. I really don't know why such a big group is treated as if it is homogeneous, clearly it isn't.
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Mapletree

Croydon 05 Oct 15 10.24am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 10.17am

Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.11am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 9.58am

1.6million pensioners are living with very little money and in poverty in the UK.

Cosseted? Wealthy? This lot?

And no mention of their benefits being protected by this odious Tory Tax Alliance Think Tank.

Still they will be dead soon.

I am not disagreeing. My initial post with the quotes was to highlight a frankly disgusting attitude and a potential attack on the poor, the sick and not well off again for which this government has indecent form.

There was no mention of means testing by the think tank which leads me to believe they want all pensioners to take a hit.

And I am not disagreeing that many pensioners are in deep trouble and it's getting deeper. It just doesn't seem fair that it is so polarised. I really don't know why such a big group is treated as if it is homogeneous, clearly it isn't.

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Mapletree Croydon 05 Oct 15 10.28am
Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 10.22am Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.11am Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 9.58am 1.6million pensioners are living with very little money and in poverty in the UK. Cosseted? Wealthy? This lot? And no mention of their benefits being protected by this odious Tory Tax Alliance Think Tank. Still they will be dead soon. So why would anyone object if the other 11 million are asked to help look after them? When their final salary pension plans were designed they were living 20 years less. People in their 50s retired on 40 60th schemes, how come that group doesn't have to work and earns two thirds what they earned when they were working. No overheads, mortgages paid off, no travel to work costs. And those with these pensions ducked austerity altogether despite their pension legacies crippling both the public and private sectors. Look at the average age of those taking holiday cruises. A sea-anchor to the progress of the working man or woman. I suppose you would rather see this wealth taken away from this group of hardworking people to be redistributed to hoodie chavs to spend on drugs/fag/booze etc or give it to the influx of economic migrants that just turn up and expect the life of riley. Both examples I give have contributed nothing to society unlike pensioners. What a horribly skewed vision of life you must have, begrudging old people living a bit after they have worked 50+ years paying tax/NI and having put up with the blitz and rationing. The things that you are envious of they have PAID for themselves. No, those that have final salary pension schemes didn't pay for them fully, that is self-evident. I would rather we find a way to release the massive equity gains of one specific generation to pay for the development of young people and the support of the 1.6 million pensioners in penury. But of course, the young people that will effectively pay for these pension schemes have very little voice, unlike the pensioner generation which is more politically active and a clear sacred cow.
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Mapletree

Croydon 05 Oct 15 10.28am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 10.22am

Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.11am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 9.58am

1.6million pensioners are living with very little money and in poverty in the UK.

Cosseted? Wealthy? This lot?

And no mention of their benefits being protected by this odious Tory Tax Alliance Think Tank.

Still they will be dead soon.

No, those that have final salary pension schemes didn't pay for them fully, that is self-evident. I would rather we find a way to release the massive equity gains of one specific generation to pay for the development of young people and the support of the 1.6 million pensioners in penury. But of course, the young people that will effectively pay for these pension schemes have very little voice, unlike the pensioner generation which is more politically active and a clear sacred cow.

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aquickgame2 Beni = summer,Caribbean = winter 05 Oct 15 10.35am
Most of these oldies have worked all of their lives,40/45 years of tax,NI that they were told or taken from their pay. Many were prudent with their money,brought up children,paid their rent/mortgage and bills and are now enjoying the last years of their lives.Many had the good fortune to be in the housing boom,good luck to them. Let them enjoy,we will all be there soon enough.
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aquickgame2

Beni = summer,Caribbean = winter 05 Oct 15 10.35am

Most of these oldies have worked all of their lives,40/45 years of tax,NI that they were told or taken from their pay.

Many were prudent with their money,brought up children,paid their rent/mortgage and bills and are now enjoying the last years of their lives.Many had the good fortune to be in the housing boom,good luck to them.

Let them enjoy,we will all be there soon enough.

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Hoof Hearted 05 Oct 15 10.42am
Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.28am Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 10.22am Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.11am Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 9.58am 1.6million pensioners are living with very little money and in poverty in the UK. Cosseted? Wealthy? This lot? And no mention of their benefits being protected by this odious Tory Tax Alliance Think Tank. Still they will be dead soon. So why would anyone object if the other 11 million are asked to help look after them? When their final salary pension plans were designed they were living 20 years less. People in their 50s retired on 40 60th schemes, how come that group doesn't have to work and earns two thirds what they earned when they were working. No overheads, mortgages paid off, no travel to work costs. And those with these pensions ducked austerity altogether despite their pension legacies crippling both the public and private sectors. Look at the average age of those taking holiday cruises. A sea-anchor to the progress of the working man or woman. I suppose you would rather see this wealth taken away from this group of hardworking people to be redistributed to hoodie chavs to spend on drugs/fag/booze etc or give it to the influx of economic migrants that just turn up and expect the life of riley. Both examples I give have contributed nothing to society unlike pensioners. What a horribly skewed vision of life you must have, begrudging old people living a bit after they have worked 50+ years paying tax/NI and having put up with the blitz and rationing. The things that you are envious of they have PAID for themselves. No, those that have final salary pension schemes didn't pay for them fully, that is self-evident. I would rather we find a way to release the massive equity gains of one specific generation to pay for the development of young people and the support of the 1.6 million pensioners in penury. But of course, the young people that will effectively pay for these pension schemes have very little voice, unlike the pensioner generation which is more politically active and a clear sacred cow. I have only worked in the private sector and have been a member of a few FS schemes. I cannot possibly see what your objection to them is in the private sector? If an employer wants to reward staff with a pension scheme, health plan, life cover, free parking or whatever he wants it's up to him - it's his money. As for the public sector... I totally agree with you. As pay and benefits are paid for by our taxes it is right that they should be reviewed and dispensed with if they are a burden on society (which they are now). The private sector has largely put it's house in order by restricting benefits and closing schemes to new entrants. The public sector (Teachers, Local Government, Fire Brigade etc) has yet to fully address the impact their pension entitlement has on the tax payer. Maybe your crusade against pensioners should be specifically targeted at ex public sector workers?
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Hoof Hearted 05 Oct 15 10.42am

Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.28am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 10.22am

Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.11am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 9.58am

1.6million pensioners are living with very little money and in poverty in the UK.

Cosseted? Wealthy? This lot?

And no mention of their benefits being protected by this odious Tory Tax Alliance Think Tank.

Still they will be dead soon.

I have only worked in the private sector and have been a member of a few FS schemes. I cannot possibly see what your objection to them is in the private sector? If an employer wants to reward staff with a pension scheme, health plan, life cover, free parking or whatever he wants it's up to him - it's his money.

As for the public sector... I totally agree with you. As pay and benefits are paid for by our taxes it is right that they should be reviewed and dispensed with if they are a burden on society (which they are now).

The private sector has largely put it's house in order by restricting benefits and closing schemes to new entrants. The public sector (Teachers, Local Government, Fire Brigade etc) has yet to fully address the impact their pension entitlement has on the tax payer.

Maybe your crusade against pensioners should be specifically targeted at ex public sector workers?

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Kermit8 Hevon 05 Oct 15 10.51am
What is clear, and I wouldn't put it past this lot, that if the government do stop certain benefits for all pensioners then that 1.6million struggling now will be much higher this time next year. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 05 Oct 15 10.51am

What is clear, and I wouldn't put it past this lot, that if the government do stop certain benefits for all pensioners then that 1.6million struggling now will be much higher this time next year.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 05 Oct 15 10.52am
Anyone who affiliates themselves 'for life' to a particular political party, is a 'cnt' to my thinking. Thatcher put all her monies in an off-shore company. How much inheritance tax did Mark and Carol pay ? How much inheritance tax did Blair (and Cherie Booth) and Cameron pay from their parents estate ? I'll give you a clue,. . . Z,..e...r....o Wake up and smell the coffee Else pay for some good accountants "The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 05 Oct 15 10.52am

Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly

Anyone who affiliates themselves 'for life' to a particular political party, is a 'cnt' to my thinking.

Thatcher put all her monies in an off-shore company.
How much inheritance tax did Mark and Carol pay ?

How much inheritance tax did Blair (and Cherie Booth) and Cameron pay from their parents estate ?

I'll give you a clue,. . . Z,..e...r....o

Wake up and smell the coffee
Else pay for some good accountants

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 05 Oct 15 10.55am
and why is the number of people in 'desperate poverty' falling ? good Government policy ? It's because those in poverty are dying quicker. lies, damn lies, and statistics. "The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 05 Oct 15 10.55am

and why is the number of people in 'desperate poverty' falling ?

good Government policy ?

It's because those in poverty are dying quicker.

lies, damn lies, and statistics.

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 05 Oct 15 10.55am
Quote matt_himself at 05 Oct 2015 9.35am Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 7.25am [Link] 1) "because they might die before the next election so can't vote." 2) "because they will probably forget who did it to them" What a delightful group. What an unintelligent post. Pensioners are the richest age group in the country. Benefits are universal and not means tested, as a result the poorest pensioners get the same as those who go on regular cruises. The fact is that that universal benefits for pensioners is not fair. The system needs reviewing and change. I suppose then that all the public service workers are OK to get their gold plated pensions when they retire? I am not alone on these boards as a "fully paid up" pensioner. We had our rough times in our youth and had to fight to get a mortgage and a job but we did it instead of just bleating about hard done we were. We did not have all the technology that is around today and we still brought up our children in a decent manner. If more youngsters and some older people got off their fat behinds and actually went out looking they would find a job and start like we had to.... from the bottom rung!! Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.
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susmik

PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 05 Oct 15 10.55am

Quote matt_himself at 05 Oct 2015 9.35am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 Oct 2015 7.25am

[Link]

1) "because they might die before the next election so can't vote."

2) "because they will probably forget who did it to them"

What a delightful group.

What an unintelligent post.

Pensioners are the richest age group in the country. Benefits are universal and not means tested, as a result the poorest pensioners get the same as those who go on regular cruises.

The fact is that that universal benefits for pensioners is not fair. The system needs reviewing and change.

I suppose then that all the public service workers are OK to get their gold plated pensions when they retire?
I am not alone on these boards as a "fully paid up" pensioner. We had our rough times in our youth and had to fight to get a mortgage and a job but we did it instead of just bleating about hard done we were. We did not have all the technology that is around today and we still brought up our children in a decent manner. If more youngsters and some older people got off their fat behinds and actually went out looking they would find a job and start like we had to.... from the bottom rung!!

Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

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Mapletree Croydon 05 Oct 15 10.56am
You are choosing to miss the point. Final salary pension schemes have emasculated many august organisations. Unfortunately businesses didn't react quickly enough, I remember specifically telling the CEO of a FTSE 100 company to deal with it and he refused - burying his head in the sand. So now big business - instead of investing for the future - is trying to repay debts that were created when actuarial reviews showed they didn't anywhere near have coverage. And that includes for example the big accountancy houses - if they got it wrong what hope other businesses. Now it's too late to do anything about that but we can at least acknowledge that there is a generation that effectively retired too early and stop featherbedding them. This is a class divide thing. Those further down the chain probably didn't retire too early, if they worked manually they may have struggled to keep working. Those at the top of the chain have ended up taking the money and running to the sun despite having many years more work left in them. And by the way unless you are at least 88 you can't have fought in the Second World War, there is nothing special about the generation of recently-retired people that are holding so much of the country's wealth.
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Mapletree

Croydon 05 Oct 15 10.56am

You are choosing to miss the point.

Final salary pension schemes have emasculated many august organisations. Unfortunately businesses didn't react quickly enough, I remember specifically telling the CEO of a FTSE 100 company to deal with it and he refused - burying his head in the sand.

So now big business - instead of investing for the future - is trying to repay debts that were created when actuarial reviews showed they didn't anywhere near have coverage. And that includes for example the big accountancy houses - if they got it wrong what hope other businesses.

Now it's too late to do anything about that but we can at least acknowledge that there is a generation that effectively retired too early and stop featherbedding them.

This is a class divide thing. Those further down the chain probably didn't retire too early, if they worked manually they may have struggled to keep working. Those at the top of the chain have ended up taking the money and running to the sun despite having many years more work left in them.

And by the way unless you are at least 88 you can't have fought in the Second World War, there is nothing special about the generation of recently-retired people that are holding so much of the country's wealth.

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 05 Oct 15 11.01am
Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.56am You are choosing to miss the point. Final salary pension schemes have emasculated many august organisations. Unfortunately businesses didn't react quickly enough, I remember specifically telling the CEO of a FTSE 100 company to deal with it and he refused - burying his head in the sand. So now big business - instead of investing for the future - is trying to repay debts that were created when actuarial reviews showed they didn't anywhere near have coverage. And that includes for example the big accountancy houses - if they got it wrong what hope other businesses. Now it's too late to do anything about that but we can at least acknowledge that there is a generation that effectively retired too early and stop featherbedding them. This is a class divide thing. Those further down the chain probably didn't retire too early, if they worked manually they may have struggled to keep working. Those at the top of the chain have ended up taking the money and running to the sun despite having many years more work left in them. And by the way unless you are at least 88 you can't have fought in the Second World War, there is nothing special about the generation of recently-retired people that are holding so much of the country's wealth. Spot Bollock The pension system from decades ago was/is totally unsustainable "The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 05 Oct 15 11.01am

Quote Mapletree at 05 Oct 2015 10.56am

You are choosing to miss the point.

Now it's too late to do anything about that but we can at least acknowledge that there is a generation that effectively retired too early and stop featherbedding them.

Spot Bollock

The pension system from decades ago was/is totally unsustainable

"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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