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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 06 Oct 15 7.14am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Quote legaleagle at 05 Oct 2015 9.09pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Hoof,any chance of reigning in your prejudices just far enough to keep in some kind of touching distance of reality?

"Police and the Trades Union Congress said that about 60,000 people took part in the protest in the northwestern city of Manchester. Four people were arrested.

..Some journalists complained of being spat at, and one delegate was hit by an egg. But Chief Superintendent John O'Hare of Greater Manchester Police said: "The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace."

...Corbyn has appealed to protesters to keep demonstrations peaceful and a spokesman for the leader said he condemned the alleged spitting. "What has happened is inexcusable and journalists must be able to do their job," the spokesman said.


King Hoof!

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Oct 15 9.41am

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Oct 2015 7.57pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 4.24pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Oct 2015 4.14pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 4.08pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Jesus do those people even exist still in any meaningful numbers?

Protest is a right (or more correctly a meaningless safety value by which sections of society 'misbehave' without actually causing real trouble). Peaceful protest is meaningless, you need some good old fashioned civil disobedience.

If you're going to 'change the system and break the status quo' you'll not achieve it by just showing up, throwing eggs and being a bit naughty for a day.



And what would be the outcome of this revolution ?

Another bunch of power hungry self serving b******s who will be unpopular with those who are never happy whatever happens.

F**k knows, but lets be honest, government couldn't give less of a s**t about 60,000 people behaving themselves, except for a few individuals, waving placards.

I'm down with Anarchism - I'm not sure that it actually involves living in a squat, living on benefits, spitting on people and just smashing s**t up on occasion. That's just being anti-social and a dick.

I always figured that it was firstly about the rights and freedom of the individual to live their lives how they wish, without the moral constraints of society being forced upon them, with a view towards a society that serves and provides for all its people, rather than organizations (state and corporate) and systems of wide scale inequality.


I love your idealism but you must realise that the system we have didn't arrive here yesterday. It has evolved over many years. It reflects the human condition.
We need evolution not revolution and that takes time.
The simple fact is that the majority of people recognise that the system serves them fairly well and that life could be a whole lot worse. Anarchy cannot provide all the things that society gives us. If people want to give those up and live in a commune then great, but most don't. They accept that people will never be equal and that wealth will never be shared evenly.

Indeed, change over time generally delivers a more stable society, although it usually does require a few 'violent time' that make the progression from one stage to another.

An anarchistic society, or a socialist one that's functional, will in my opinion require at least two technical developments. One is likely some form of atomic scale manipulation (that would render the idea value and scarcity meaningless) and the second will be the possibility of long range space travel or colonization (which renders the concept of nationhood irrelevant related to individual responsibility and community engagement).

I'm not really sure it 'reflects' the human condition or nature at all, but I would suggest it defines it more. We raised and socialized within a series of experiences and cultural imperatives which define who we are. Capitalism has a great deal of influence, in a world where scarcity is common place. Wealth has replaced land as a means of establishing influence and power, since the move from agrarian society and 'feudal systems' (where the capacity of farms and produce outweighed the influence of money).

Its always been there in some form or another, the idea of exchanging goods by barter is arguably a form of capitalism - but probably until the turn of the 20th century, mid 19th century it had not become a dominant power in society, in which the idea of profit justified action taken (particularly over maybe ethics or morality).


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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leggedstruggle Flag Croydon 06 Oct 15 10.24am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Oct 2015 9.41am

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Oct 2015 7.57pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 4.24pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Oct 2015 4.14pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 4.08pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Jesus do those people even exist still in any meaningful numbers?

Protest is a right (or more correctly a meaningless safety value by which sections of society 'misbehave' without actually causing real trouble). Peaceful protest is meaningless, you need some good old fashioned civil disobedience.

If you're going to 'change the system and break the status quo' you'll not achieve it by just showing up, throwing eggs and being a bit naughty for a day.



And what would be the outcome of this revolution ?

Another bunch of power hungry self serving b******s who will be unpopular with those who are never happy whatever happens.

F**k knows, but lets be honest, government couldn't give less of a s**t about 60,000 people behaving themselves, except for a few individuals, waving placards.

I'm down with Anarchism - I'm not sure that it actually involves living in a squat, living on benefits, spitting on people and just smashing s**t up on occasion. That's just being anti-social and a dick.

I always figured that it was firstly about the rights and freedom of the individual to live their lives how they wish, without the moral constraints of society being forced upon them, with a view towards a society that serves and provides for all its people, rather than organizations (state and corporate) and systems of wide scale inequality.


I love your idealism but you must realise that the system we have didn't arrive here yesterday. It has evolved over many years. It reflects the human condition.
We need evolution not revolution and that takes time.
The simple fact is that the majority of people recognise that the system serves them fairly well and that life could be a whole lot worse. Anarchy cannot provide all the things that society gives us. If people want to give those up and live in a commune then great, but most don't. They accept that people will never be equal and that wealth will never be shared evenly.

Indeed, change over time generally delivers a more stable society, although it usually does require a few 'violent time' that make the progression from one stage to another.

An anarchistic society, or a socialist one that's functional, will in my opinion require at least two technical developments. One is likely some form of atomic scale manipulation (that would render the idea value and scarcity meaningless) and the second will be the possibility of long range space travel or colonization (which renders the concept of nationhood irrelevant related to individual responsibility and community engagement).

I'm not really sure it 'reflects' the human condition or nature at all, but I would suggest it defines it more. We raised and socialized within a series of experiences and cultural imperatives which define who we are. Capitalism has a great deal of influence, in a world where scarcity is common place. Wealth has replaced land as a means of establishing influence and power, since the move from agrarian society and 'feudal systems' (where the capacity of farms and produce outweighed the influence of money).

Its always been there in some form or another, the idea of exchanging goods by barter is arguably a form of capitalism - but probably until the turn of the 20th century, mid 19th century it had not become a dominant power in society, in which the idea of profit justified action taken (particularly over maybe ethics or morality).


Brilliant Dave Spart spoof!

 


mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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Hoof Hearted 06 Oct 15 11.56am

Quote chris123 at 06 Oct 2015 7.14am

Quote legaleagle at 05 Oct 2015 9.09pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Hoof,any chance of reigning in your prejudices just far enough to keep in some kind of touching distance of reality?

"Police and the Trades Union Congress said that about 60,000 people took part in the protest in the northwestern city of Manchester. Four people were arrested.

..Some journalists complained of being spat at, and one delegate was hit by an egg. But Chief Superintendent John O'Hare of Greater Manchester Police said: "The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace."

...Corbyn has appealed to protesters to keep demonstrations peaceful and a spokesman for the leader said he condemned the alleged spitting. "What has happened is inexcusable and journalists must be able to do their job," the spokesman said.


King Hoof!


I will be a benevolent Monarch when I finally get to Reign over my subjects!

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Oct 15 12.12pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Oct 2015 11.56am

Quote chris123 at 06 Oct 2015 7.14am

Quote legaleagle at 05 Oct 2015 9.09pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Hoof,any chance of reigning in your prejudices just far enough to keep in some kind of touching distance of reality?

"Police and the Trades Union Congress said that about 60,000 people took part in the protest in the northwestern city of Manchester. Four people were arrested.

..Some journalists complained of being spat at, and one delegate was hit by an egg. But Chief Superintendent John O'Hare of Greater Manchester Police said: "The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace."

...Corbyn has appealed to protesters to keep demonstrations peaceful and a spokesman for the leader said he condemned the alleged spitting. "What has happened is inexcusable and journalists must be able to do their job," the spokesman said.


King Hoof!


I will be a benevolent Monarch when I finally get to Reign over my subjects!

Just like Stalin was going to eventually be a benevolent dictator, once he got the population down to one....


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hoof Hearted 06 Oct 15 12.15pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Oct 2015 12.12pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Oct 2015 11.56am

Quote chris123 at 06 Oct 2015 7.14am

Quote legaleagle at 05 Oct 2015 9.09pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Hoof,any chance of reigning in your prejudices just far enough to keep in some kind of touching distance of reality?

"Police and the Trades Union Congress said that about 60,000 people took part in the protest in the northwestern city of Manchester. Four people were arrested.

..Some journalists complained of being spat at, and one delegate was hit by an egg. But Chief Superintendent John O'Hare of Greater Manchester Police said: "The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace."

...Corbyn has appealed to protesters to keep demonstrations peaceful and a spokesman for the leader said he condemned the alleged spitting. "What has happened is inexcusable and journalists must be able to do their job," the spokesman said.


King Hoof!


I will be a benevolent Monarch when I finally get to Reign over my subjects!

Just like Stalin was going to eventually be a benevolent dictator, once he got the population down to one....



 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 06 Oct 15 12.34pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Oct 2015 9.41am

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Oct 2015 7.57pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 4.24pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Oct 2015 4.14pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 4.08pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Jesus do those people even exist still in any meaningful numbers?

Protest is a right (or more correctly a meaningless safety value by which sections of society 'misbehave' without actually causing real trouble). Peaceful protest is meaningless, you need some good old fashioned civil disobedience.

If you're going to 'change the system and break the status quo' you'll not achieve it by just showing up, throwing eggs and being a bit naughty for a day.



And what would be the outcome of this revolution ?

Another bunch of power hungry self serving b******s who will be unpopular with those who are never happy whatever happens.

F**k knows, but lets be honest, government couldn't give less of a s**t about 60,000 people behaving themselves, except for a few individuals, waving placards.

I'm down with Anarchism - I'm not sure that it actually involves living in a squat, living on benefits, spitting on people and just smashing s**t up on occasion. That's just being anti-social and a dick.

I always figured that it was firstly about the rights and freedom of the individual to live their lives how they wish, without the moral constraints of society being forced upon them, with a view towards a society that serves and provides for all its people, rather than organizations (state and corporate) and systems of wide scale inequality.


I love your idealism but you must realise that the system we have didn't arrive here yesterday. It has evolved over many years. It reflects the human condition.
We need evolution not revolution and that takes time.
The simple fact is that the majority of people recognise that the system serves them fairly well and that life could be a whole lot worse. Anarchy cannot provide all the things that society gives us. If people want to give those up and live in a commune then great, but most don't. They accept that people will never be equal and that wealth will never be shared evenly.

Indeed, change over time generally delivers a more stable society, although it usually does require a few 'violent time' that make the progression from one stage to another.

An anarchistic society, or a socialist one that's functional, will in my opinion require at least two technical developments. One is likely some form of atomic scale manipulation (that would render the idea value and scarcity meaningless) and the second will be the possibility of long range space travel or colonization (which renders the concept of nationhood irrelevant related to individual responsibility and community engagement).

I'm not really sure it 'reflects' the human condition or nature at all, but I would suggest it defines it more. We raised and socialized within a series of experiences and cultural imperatives which define who we are. Capitalism has a great deal of influence, in a world where scarcity is common place. Wealth has replaced land as a means of establishing influence and power, since the move from agrarian society and 'feudal systems' (where the capacity of farms and produce outweighed the influence of money).

Its always been there in some form or another, the idea of exchanging goods by barter is arguably a form of capitalism - but probably until the turn of the 20th century, mid 19th century it had not become a dominant power in society, in which the idea of profit justified action taken (particularly over maybe ethics or morality).



If you are trying to say that only technological advancement that removes poverty will create a more equal society then I agree in part.
In such circumstances I believe that there will still be no equality but that meaningful poverty will disappear as long as everyone remains part of the society that makes it possible.

When I say that our system reflects the human condition, I mean that it is in the nature of people to aspire to more than their neighbour. It is in their nature to put themselves and their kin first. There is also a part of us that wishes to see fairness for all.
Our self interest usually outweighs the latter. Remember that all our society has ultimately been created by the minds of individuals. Nature still exists in systems created by men.

To try and enforce a system that creates equality is doomed to failure and where our current system gnaws at the natural human condition is where we see the most problems. Men are men and when society tries to dehumanise us for its own sake then it begins to fail.

The industrial revolution created all that we have today, but as you imply, it came at a big cost to our humanity. I hope that the future world will address that balance so we can all lead more comfortable lives, but they will never be equal lives.
There will always be something that to which people aspire that makes them "better" than someone else.

Returning to a pre industrial type society could create a more natural environment for people in general but it won't create more wealth and it certainly won't be equal.

 

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 06 Oct 15 12.36pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Oct 2015 12.12pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Oct 2015 11.56am

Quote chris123 at 06 Oct 2015 7.14am

Quote legaleagle at 05 Oct 2015 9.09pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Hoof,any chance of reigning in your prejudices just far enough to keep in some kind of touching distance of reality?

"Police and the Trades Union Congress said that about 60,000 people took part in the protest in the northwestern city of Manchester. Four people were arrested.

..Some journalists complained of being spat at, and one delegate was hit by an egg. But Chief Superintendent John O'Hare of Greater Manchester Police said: "The overwhelming majority of people have exercised their democratic right to protest with dignity and good grace."

...Corbyn has appealed to protesters to keep demonstrations peaceful and a spokesman for the leader said he condemned the alleged spitting. "What has happened is inexcusable and journalists must be able to do their job," the spokesman said.


King Hoof!


I will be a benevolent Monarch when I finally get to Reign over my subjects!

Just like Stalin was going to eventually be a benevolent dictator, once he got the population down to one....


In joke James.

 

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 06 Oct 15 12.46pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 05 Oct 2015 9.17pm

Corbyn has filled manchester cathedral tonight.

Why are you posting that in this thread when there's a whole thread on him?

Wouldn't be trying to deflect the actions of your brethren now, would you?


 


Optimistic as ever

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Oct 15 1.21pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 06 Oct 2015 12.34pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Oct 2015 9.41am

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Oct 2015 7.57pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 4.24pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Oct 2015 4.14pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Oct 2015 4.08pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 05 Oct 2015 3.50pm

Protests like this are just an excuse for class war style anarchists to wreck property and carry out violence towards the police.

Once again Corbyn shows he has no chance of becoming PM by condoning the protest.

Jesus do those people even exist still in any meaningful numbers?

Protest is a right (or more correctly a meaningless safety value by which sections of society 'misbehave' without actually causing real trouble). Peaceful protest is meaningless, you need some good old fashioned civil disobedience.

If you're going to 'change the system and break the status quo' you'll not achieve it by just showing up, throwing eggs and being a bit naughty for a day.



And what would be the outcome of this revolution ?

Another bunch of power hungry self serving b******s who will be unpopular with those who are never happy whatever happens.

F**k knows, but lets be honest, government couldn't give less of a s**t about 60,000 people behaving themselves, except for a few individuals, waving placards.

I'm down with Anarchism - I'm not sure that it actually involves living in a squat, living on benefits, spitting on people and just smashing s**t up on occasion. That's just being anti-social and a dick.

I always figured that it was firstly about the rights and freedom of the individual to live their lives how they wish, without the moral constraints of society being forced upon them, with a view towards a society that serves and provides for all its people, rather than organizations (state and corporate) and systems of wide scale inequality.


I love your idealism but you must realise that the system we have didn't arrive here yesterday. It has evolved over many years. It reflects the human condition.
We need evolution not revolution and that takes time.
The simple fact is that the majority of people recognise that the system serves them fairly well and that life could be a whole lot worse. Anarchy cannot provide all the things that society gives us. If people want to give those up and live in a commune then great, but most don't. They accept that people will never be equal and that wealth will never be shared evenly.

Indeed, change over time generally delivers a more stable society, although it usually does require a few 'violent time' that make the progression from one stage to another.

An anarchistic society, or a socialist one that's functional, will in my opinion require at least two technical developments. One is likely some form of atomic scale manipulation (that would render the idea value and scarcity meaningless) and the second will be the possibility of long range space travel or colonization (which renders the concept of nationhood irrelevant related to individual responsibility and community engagement).

I'm not really sure it 'reflects' the human condition or nature at all, but I would suggest it defines it more. We raised and socialized within a series of experiences and cultural imperatives which define who we are. Capitalism has a great deal of influence, in a world where scarcity is common place. Wealth has replaced land as a means of establishing influence and power, since the move from agrarian society and 'feudal systems' (where the capacity of farms and produce outweighed the influence of money).

Its always been there in some form or another, the idea of exchanging goods by barter is arguably a form of capitalism - but probably until the turn of the 20th century, mid 19th century it had not become a dominant power in society, in which the idea of profit justified action taken (particularly over maybe ethics or morality).



If you are trying to say that only technological advancement that removes poverty will create a more equal society then I agree in part.
In such circumstances I believe that there will still be no equality but that meaningful poverty will disappear as long as everyone remains part of the society that makes it possible.

When I say that our system reflects the human condition, I mean that it is in the nature of people to aspire to more than their neighbour. It is in their nature to put themselves and their kin first. There is also a part of us that wishes to see fairness for all.
Our self interest usually outweighs the latter. Remember that all our society has ultimately been created by the minds of individuals. Nature still exists in systems created by men.

To try and enforce a system that creates equality is doomed to failure and where our current system gnaws at the natural human condition is where we see the most problems. Men are men and when society tries to dehumanise us for its own sake then it begins to fail.

The industrial revolution created all that we have today, but as you imply, it came at a big cost to our humanity. I hope that the future world will address that balance so we can all lead more comfortable lives, but they will never be equal lives.
There will always be something that to which people aspire that makes them "better" than someone else.

Returning to a pre industrial type society could create a more natural environment for people in general but it won't create more wealth and it certainly won't be equal.

Equality can never be true in society, without serious generation changes to how humans learn to perceive, if at all possible. We define our reality by 'differences' and not similarities, and consequently we can only ever define a world appositionally. All we can ever do, is make the means of recourse against prejudice and inequality suitable to protect individuals from the power of other peoples prejudices.

In terms of self interest and capitalism, I think this is a common mistake, there is a correlation, but only when you reduce the idea of self interest to 'money', rather than why people pursue the production of wealth. I work and run a business, not because my nature is aligned with capitalism, but that my life is better if I do so. My self interest requires that I produce wealth, but I don't pursue wealth production for its own sake.

People for example do the lottery, not really because they want to be rich, but I suspect for the most part, because they can then 'buy out' of the need to produce wealth in order to enjoy their life. As such, we have adapted our nature maybe towards capitalism, rather than it reflecting ourselves. We're not producing wealth for its own sake, most of us are producing wealth because we need to, in order to fulfill interests. But we'd just as happily pursue them for free.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View Jimenez's Profile Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 06 Oct 15 1.24pm Send a Private Message to Jimenez Add Jimenez as a friend

[Link]

This is the part I hate about them, probably more than anything else.

 


Pro USA & Israel

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Oct 15 1.34pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 06 Oct 2015 12.34pm

To try and enforce a system that creates equality is doomed to failure and where our current system gnaws at the natural human condition is where we see the most problems. Men are men and when society tries to dehumanise us for its own sake then it begins to fail

Certainly true, but all society tries to pursue this objective, despite of the abject disasters (drugs, prostitution, homosexuality, certain ideas, certain books, women) and in fact its often this absurdity of trying to force people to be something, that actually then changes society through objection. And the more you try to force that on people, the greater the failure, but this is the lesson that society never learns; even if its only 10% of a population, the harder you push, the more it will prosper.

Ultimately, the end of capitalism will occur naturally through a process of erosion of people's willingness to believe in it, almost certainly coupled with technological changes that underpin it. Marx argued that, but I think he's wrong to assume it will be socialism (which is just a reflection of capitalism). If you remove 'scarcity' you remove value and status as relevant factors in social definition, and that invariably means a 'social epoch' of change.

The industrial revolution created all that we have today, but as you imply, it came at a big cost to our humanity. I hope that the future world will address that balance so we can all lead more comfortable lives, but they will never be equal lives.
There will always be something that to which people aspire that makes them "better" than someone else.

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 06 Oct 2015 12.34pm
Returning to a pre industrial type society could create a more natural environment for people in general but it won't create more wealth and it certainly won't be equal.

Not at all - it creates a different balance of power, it would however make 'wealth power' less dominant. The problem isn't really capitalism, its how capitalism generates wealth and how those with wealth use that power. Same problem throughout history, the problem is not about capitalism, feudalism, aggriculturalism, theocracies or dictatorships - its about the abuse of power to bend society to the demands of an elite. You could see that immediately with the Russian Revolution, where in upon gaining power Lenin and Trotsky used that power to define a society they wanted to control. Its not communism that's the problem there, its the use and abuse of power.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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