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Venezuela - socialist paradise

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Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.

 


Optimistic as ever

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Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.

 


Optimistic as ever

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 09 Dec 15 2.31pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 09 Dec 15 2.33pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?

 


Optimistic as ever

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Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Hard Brexit 09 Dec 15 3.25pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.


Michael, what you say is ill informed and largely based on assumption rather than anything with merit.

Having a social welfare programme is different from being socialist. This is what you plainly do not see, or want to see. For example, One Nation politics is capitalism with social welfare built in not with a 'bit' of socialism.

I fail to see how you can be a 'bit' socialist. Socialism is an ideology seeking control of markets. All of the countries you mention are free market economies running social welfare programmes.

What does a 'bit' socialist mean? It's like saying someone is a bit gay, it is meaningless and disingenuous.

What you are trying to do is convince yourself that some sort of 'third way', as espoused by Tony Blair and French politicians exists which provides the best of both Worlds. It doesn't and won't happen.

Cue a s*** load of years old internet links provided to back up your spurious 'thoughts'.

 


"The real question is, at the end of the day, do we want to run our country? Are we proud of who we are? Are we happy to be just a star on somebody else's flag, or do we want to be an independent nation? - Nigel Farage

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 09 Dec 15 3.32pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.

f***ing hell, Kerm. You could at least try.

Pick a tax, any tax.

Nothing the Forbes bloke has written says that NZ and Canada have higher taxes, you did. That was what I questioned of your post and it seems you were wrong, you certainly haven't backed it up whereas I've found the first two examples, that most people think of in terms of taxation, disprove your statement.

Edited by Stuk (09 Dec 2015 3.41pm)

 


Optimistic as ever

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 09 Dec 15 4.51pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 3.32pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.

f***ing hell, Kerm. You could at least try.

Pick a tax, any tax.

Nothing the Forbes bloke has written says that NZ and Canada have higher taxes, you did. That was what I questioned of your post and it seems you were wrong, you certainly haven't backed it up whereas I've found the first two examples, that most people think of in terms of taxation, disprove your statement.

Edited by Stuk (09 Dec 2015 3.41pm)


Ah, I see. You read it as 'higher'. Read back - I said 'high'.

I made no comparison to the UK. You did.

What are we disagreeing about again?

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 09 Dec 15 5.01pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 4.51pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 3.32pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.

f***ing hell, Kerm. You could at least try.

Pick a tax, any tax.

Nothing the Forbes bloke has written says that NZ and Canada have higher taxes, you did. That was what I questioned of your post and it seems you were wrong, you certainly haven't backed it up whereas I've found the first two examples, that most people think of in terms of taxation, disprove your statement.

Edited by Stuk (09 Dec 2015 3.41pm)


Ah, I see. You read it as 'higher'. Read back - I said 'high'.

I made no comparison to the UK. You did.

What are we disagreeing about again?

No I read it as high, as I wrote. and then said i.e. any that are higher than ours?

You clearly hold those countries as more socialist than the UK and said they do it via high taxes, so I asked for any taxes they have that are higher than ours.

I chose income and sales tax and neither country has higher tax rates than us for either.

That any of the 4 countries you listed could be classed as socialist, partly socialist, semi socialist etc are not, they're capitalist just like us.

 


Optimistic as ever

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Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 3.25pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.


Michael, what you say is ill informed and largely based on assumption rather than anything with merit.

Having a social welfare programme is different from being socialist. This is what you plainly do not see, or want to see. For example, One Nation politics is capitalism with social welfare built in not with a 'bit' of socialism.

I fail to see how you can be a 'bit' socialist. Socialism is an ideology seeking control of markets. All of the countries you mention are free market economies running social welfare programmes.

What does a 'bit' socialist mean? It's like saying someone is a bit gay, it is meaningless and disingenuous.

What you are trying to do is convince yourself that some sort of 'third way', as espoused by Tony Blair and French politicians exists which provides the best of both Worlds. It doesn't and won't happen.

Cue a s*** load of years old internet links provided to back up your spurious 'thoughts'.


You are way too narrow minded and vitriol-infused against anything - even the good - that has emanated from the leftist side of politics over the last century or so to have a proper discussion with Matthew. And have been for a while. Whether it's this subject or Israel or Somalis/Immigration, etc, I can't work out if it is just your sheer intellectual stubborness in order to blank out the things that challenge fairly your way of thinking or, possibly, part paranoia.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


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Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 5.01pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 4.51pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 3.32pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.


Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.


Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.


Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.


It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%


It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?


You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.

f***ing hell, Kerm. You could at least try.

Pick a tax, any tax.

Nothing the Forbes bloke has written says that NZ and Canada have higher taxes, you did. That was what I questioned of your post and it seems you were wrong, you certainly haven't backed it up whereas I've found the first two examples, that most people think of in terms of taxation, disprove your statement.

Edited by Stuk (09 Dec 2015 3.41pm)


Ah, I see. You read it as 'higher'. Read back - I said 'high'.

I made no comparison to the UK. You did.

What are we disagreeing about again?

No I read it as high, as I wrote. and then said i.e. any that are higher than ours?

You clearly hold those countries as more socialist than the UK and said they do it via high taxes, so I asked for any taxes they have that are higher than ours.

I chose income and sales tax and neither country has higher tax rates than us for either.

That any of the 4 countries you listed could be classed as socialist, partly socialist, semi socialist etc are not, they're capitalist just like us.


I disagree with the last paragraph, of course. Moderate socialism is an integral part of their nationhood. I know you will disagree with that yourself but don't understand 'how?'

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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