'White Schoolgirl Raped by 15 Asian Men'
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  Hrolf The Ganger  12 Nov 15 3.37pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 1.35pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 12 Nov 2015 10.59am
Quote elgrande at 11 Nov 2015 8.28pm
Now you see this is what I can not understand. And I don't think any one has tried to say all rapes are carried out by Muslim/pakistani men.
Ridiculous comparisons with a 1949 Israeli rape case and trying to play down the fact that Muslims participating in gang rape is a growing problem makes the left leaning on here look very silly and/or irresponsible. I doubt its actually a growing problem, but rather one that has achieved recent highlighting in the media and popularity. I wouldn't say that I was playing down Muslims or gang rape, but highlighting the fact that we tend to focus on rather convenient misdirections that allow us to place the blame on 'different cultures', rather than addressing the problem with all men in all societies. Focusing on the 12%, rather than the 100% of the problem is utterly stupid. The problem isn't with Islam or Muslims, its with men, irrespective of culture. Or are we also to presume that White British Light Entertainment also promotes a culture of rape. Of course it doesn't, the problem lies in all cultures and within 'male status and power within society and culture' - and pakistani and Muslim cultures are very male orientated power cultures, but we're not exactly far behind them. And it stems from exactly the same sources. Status, power, gender inequality, education and identity. The problem is in how we raise men, how men think about women and sex, regard women and sex, value women and sex. Its also not about 'winning arguements' but the reality of facts. We're arguing about a small percentage of offenders, based on a convenient correlation, because its easier than admitting that there is a massive problem in society with sexual violence and abuse aimed against women. Forgive me, but you seem to be doing cartwheels to avoid facts.
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| bilbo 12 Nov 15 4.29pm |
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Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 3.37pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 1.35pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 12 Nov 2015 10.59am
Quote elgrande at 11 Nov 2015 8.28pm
Now you see this is what I can not understand. And I don't think any one has tried to say all rapes are carried out by Muslim/pakistani men.
Ridiculous comparisons with a 1949 Israeli rape case and trying to play down the fact that Muslims participating in gang rape is a growing problem makes the left leaning on here look very silly and/or irresponsible. I doubt its actually a growing problem, but rather one that has achieved recent highlighting in the media and popularity. I wouldn't say that I was playing down Muslims or gang rape, but highlighting the fact that we tend to focus on rather convenient misdirections that allow us to place the blame on 'different cultures', rather than addressing the problem with all men in all societies. Focusing on the 12%, rather than the 100% of the problem is utterly stupid. The problem isn't with Islam or Muslims, its with men, irrespective of culture. Or are we also to presume that White British Light Entertainment also promotes a culture of rape. Of course it doesn't, the problem lies in all cultures and within 'male status and power within society and culture' - and pakistani and Muslim cultures are very male orientated power cultures, but we're not exactly far behind them. And it stems from exactly the same sources. Status, power, gender inequality, education and identity. The problem is in how we raise men, how men think about women and sex, regard women and sex, value women and sex. Its also not about 'winning arguements' but the reality of facts. We're arguing about a small percentage of offenders, based on a convenient correlation, because its easier than admitting that there is a massive problem in society with sexual violence and abuse aimed against women. Forgive me, but you seem to be doing cartwheels to avoid facts.
Your: "Muslim men either commit a disproportionate amount of rape or they don't. That is the beginning and end of it" comment could just as easily be: "Men either commit a disproportionate amount of rape (compared to women) or they don't. That is the beginning and end of it." You ought to get out of this ultra focused "drill down to the first minority I find and sod everything else" mindset at every turn. You do not particularly seem to care about or care to comment on sexual violence as a wider male issue which is a vital component of the discussion, it's simply a flippant "it's not rocket science". That's an insult to the vast numbers of victims who don't meet your checklist of racial or religious requirements. Fine, care about specific concerns within communities that you feel are alien to you and need to be better understood, we should all do that and Jamie offered some very salient points about the status of males, but at least offer some pretense of being concerned about the actual issues at hand not just the race or religion of those involved. Edited by bilbo (12 Nov 2015 5.16pm)
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Jonny_Johnson  Tel Aviv 12 Nov 15 5.50pm |
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For all those that apologise for the Islamic culture of contempt and bury your head in the sands, perhaps you can subscribe to an alternate universe view ...
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Attachment: | Hrolf The Ganger 12 Nov 15 6.03pm |
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Quote bilbo at 12 Nov 2015 4.29pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 3.37pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 1.35pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 12 Nov 2015 10.59am
Quote elgrande at 11 Nov 2015 8.28pm
Now you see this is what I can not understand. And I don't think any one has tried to say all rapes are carried out by Muslim/pakistani men.
Ridiculous comparisons with a 1949 Israeli rape case and trying to play down the fact that Muslims participating in gang rape is a growing problem makes the left leaning on here look very silly and/or irresponsible. I doubt its actually a growing problem, but rather one that has achieved recent highlighting in the media and popularity. I wouldn't say that I was playing down Muslims or gang rape, but highlighting the fact that we tend to focus on rather convenient misdirections that allow us to place the blame on 'different cultures', rather than addressing the problem with all men in all societies. Focusing on the 12%, rather than the 100% of the problem is utterly stupid. The problem isn't with Islam or Muslims, its with men, irrespective of culture. Or are we also to presume that White British Light Entertainment also promotes a culture of rape. Of course it doesn't, the problem lies in all cultures and within 'male status and power within society and culture' - and pakistani and Muslim cultures are very male orientated power cultures, but we're not exactly far behind them. And it stems from exactly the same sources. Status, power, gender inequality, education and identity. The problem is in how we raise men, how men think about women and sex, regard women and sex, value women and sex. Its also not about 'winning arguements' but the reality of facts. We're arguing about a small percentage of offenders, based on a convenient correlation, because its easier than admitting that there is a massive problem in society with sexual violence and abuse aimed against women. Forgive me, but you seem to be doing cartwheels to avoid facts.
Your: "Muslim men either commit a disproportionate amount of rape or they don't. That is the beginning and end of it" comment could just as easily be: "Men either commit a disproportionate amount of rape (compared to women) or they don't. That is the beginning and end of it." You ought to get out of this ultra focused "drill down to the first minority I find and sod everything else" mindset at every turn. You do not particularly seem to care about or care to comment on sexual violence as a wider male issue which is a vital component of the discussion, it's simply a flippant "it's not rocket science". That's an insult to the vast numbers of victims who don't meet your checklist of racial or religious requirements. Fine, care about specific concerns within communities that you feel are alien to you and need to be better understood, we should all do that and Jamie offered some very salient points about the status of males, but at least offer some pretense of being concerned about the actual issues at hand not just the race or religion of those involved. Edited by bilbo (12 Nov 2015 5.16pm)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Nov 15 6.04pm |
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Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 3.37pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 1.35pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 12 Nov 2015 10.59am
Quote elgrande at 11 Nov 2015 8.28pm
Now you see this is what I can not understand. And I don't think any one has tried to say all rapes are carried out by Muslim/pakistani men.
Ridiculous comparisons with a 1949 Israeli rape case and trying to play down the fact that Muslims participating in gang rape is a growing problem makes the left leaning on here look very silly and/or irresponsible. I doubt its actually a growing problem, but rather one that has achieved recent highlighting in the media and popularity. I wouldn't say that I was playing down Muslims or gang rape, but highlighting the fact that we tend to focus on rather convenient misdirections that allow us to place the blame on 'different cultures', rather than addressing the problem with all men in all societies. Focusing on the 12%, rather than the 100% of the problem is utterly stupid. The problem isn't with Islam or Muslims, its with men, irrespective of culture. Or are we also to presume that White British Light Entertainment also promotes a culture of rape. Of course it doesn't, the problem lies in all cultures and within 'male status and power within society and culture' - and pakistani and Muslim cultures are very male orientated power cultures, but we're not exactly far behind them. And it stems from exactly the same sources. Status, power, gender inequality, education and identity. The problem is in how we raise men, how men think about women and sex, regard women and sex, value women and sex. Its also not about 'winning arguements' but the reality of facts. We're arguing about a small percentage of offenders, based on a convenient correlation, because its easier than admitting that there is a massive problem in society with sexual violence and abuse aimed against women. Forgive me, but you seem to be doing cartwheels to avoid facts. Around 12%, or 676 of the 5682 people who were serving a custodial prison sentence in 2014 were Muslim, which make up 5% of the UK Population. Its definitely a problem. This seems significant, but it needs other baselines to measure against (particually given that a number of muslim men were convicted of sex offences in the last few years, of offences which included historical offences - which may distort the reality of that figure as these convictions largely came over the last two years). Of course that leaves 5006, of 78% of those serving time for rape as being non-Muslim. Its interesting as well that statistical data isn't available in regards to other religious groups and sex offences by which to draw a comparison to ascertain whether this is abnormally high. Sex offences in the Catholic church in recent years have been 'notorious' for example, but no one has FOI data on Christianity and sex offences. As a side note, RapeCrisis reports that 23% of victims that come into contact with them, are non-white, which is also well above the national average.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Nov 15 6.05pm |
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Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 3.37pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 1.35pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 12 Nov 2015 10.59am
Quote elgrande at 11 Nov 2015 8.28pm
Now you see this is what I can not understand. And I don't think any one has tried to say all rapes are carried out by Muslim/pakistani men.
Ridiculous comparisons with a 1949 Israeli rape case and trying to play down the fact that Muslims participating in gang rape is a growing problem makes the left leaning on here look very silly and/or irresponsible. I doubt its actually a growing problem, but rather one that has achieved recent highlighting in the media and popularity. I wouldn't say that I was playing down Muslims or gang rape, but highlighting the fact that we tend to focus on rather convenient misdirections that allow us to place the blame on 'different cultures', rather than addressing the problem with all men in all societies. Focusing on the 12%, rather than the 100% of the problem is utterly stupid. The problem isn't with Islam or Muslims, its with men, irrespective of culture. Or are we also to presume that White British Light Entertainment also promotes a culture of rape. Of course it doesn't, the problem lies in all cultures and within 'male status and power within society and culture' - and pakistani and Muslim cultures are very male orientated power cultures, but we're not exactly far behind them. And it stems from exactly the same sources. Status, power, gender inequality, education and identity. The problem is in how we raise men, how men think about women and sex, regard women and sex, value women and sex. Its also not about 'winning arguements' but the reality of facts. We're arguing about a small percentage of offenders, based on a convenient correlation, because its easier than admitting that there is a massive problem in society with sexual violence and abuse aimed against women. Forgive me, but you seem to be doing cartwheels to avoid facts. Rape is defined by law - so the last part is somewhat flippent.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Nov 15 6.09pm |
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Quote Jonny_Johnson at 12 Nov 2015 5.50pm
For all those that apologise for the Islamic culture of contempt and bury your head in the sands, perhaps you can subscribe to an alternate universe view ... Grow up.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 12 Nov 15 6.16pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 6.05pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 3.37pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 1.35pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 12 Nov 2015 10.59am
Quote elgrande at 11 Nov 2015 8.28pm
Now you see this is what I can not understand. And I don't think any one has tried to say all rapes are carried out by Muslim/pakistani men.
Ridiculous comparisons with a 1949 Israeli rape case and trying to play down the fact that Muslims participating in gang rape is a growing problem makes the left leaning on here look very silly and/or irresponsible. I doubt its actually a growing problem, but rather one that has achieved recent highlighting in the media and popularity. I wouldn't say that I was playing down Muslims or gang rape, but highlighting the fact that we tend to focus on rather convenient misdirections that allow us to place the blame on 'different cultures', rather than addressing the problem with all men in all societies. Focusing on the 12%, rather than the 100% of the problem is utterly stupid. The problem isn't with Islam or Muslims, its with men, irrespective of culture. Or are we also to presume that White British Light Entertainment also promotes a culture of rape. Of course it doesn't, the problem lies in all cultures and within 'male status and power within society and culture' - and pakistani and Muslim cultures are very male orientated power cultures, but we're not exactly far behind them. And it stems from exactly the same sources. Status, power, gender inequality, education and identity. The problem is in how we raise men, how men think about women and sex, regard women and sex, value women and sex. Its also not about 'winning arguements' but the reality of facts. We're arguing about a small percentage of offenders, based on a convenient correlation, because its easier than admitting that there is a massive problem in society with sexual violence and abuse aimed against women. Forgive me, but you seem to be doing cartwheels to avoid facts. Rape is defined by law - so the last part is somewhat flippent. I meant that varying culture will effect peoples attitudes differently. The bottom line is the law as you point out.
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| bilbo 12 Nov 15 6.30pm |
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Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 6.03pm
Quote bilbo at 12 Nov 2015 4.29pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 3.37pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 1.35pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 12 Nov 2015 10.59am
Quote elgrande at 11 Nov 2015 8.28pm
Now you see this is what I can not understand. And I don't think any one has tried to say all rapes are carried out by Muslim/pakistani men.
Ridiculous comparisons with a 1949 Israeli rape case and trying to play down the fact that Muslims participating in gang rape is a growing problem makes the left leaning on here look very silly and/or irresponsible. I doubt its actually a growing problem, but rather one that has achieved recent highlighting in the media and popularity. I wouldn't say that I was playing down Muslims or gang rape, but highlighting the fact that we tend to focus on rather convenient misdirections that allow us to place the blame on 'different cultures', rather than addressing the problem with all men in all societies. Focusing on the 12%, rather than the 100% of the problem is utterly stupid. The problem isn't with Islam or Muslims, its with men, irrespective of culture. Or are we also to presume that White British Light Entertainment also promotes a culture of rape. Of course it doesn't, the problem lies in all cultures and within 'male status and power within society and culture' - and pakistani and Muslim cultures are very male orientated power cultures, but we're not exactly far behind them. And it stems from exactly the same sources. Status, power, gender inequality, education and identity. The problem is in how we raise men, how men think about women and sex, regard women and sex, value women and sex. Its also not about 'winning arguements' but the reality of facts. We're arguing about a small percentage of offenders, based on a convenient correlation, because its easier than admitting that there is a massive problem in society with sexual violence and abuse aimed against women. Forgive me, but you seem to be doing cartwheels to avoid facts.
Your: "Muslim men either commit a disproportionate amount of rape or they don't. That is the beginning and end of it" comment could just as easily be: "Men either commit a disproportionate amount of rape (compared to women) or they don't. That is the beginning and end of it." You ought to get out of this ultra focused "drill down to the first minority I find and sod everything else" mindset at every turn. You do not particularly seem to care about or care to comment on sexual violence as a wider male issue which is a vital component of the discussion, it's simply a flippant "it's not rocket science". That's an insult to the vast numbers of victims who don't meet your checklist of racial or religious requirements. Fine, care about specific concerns within communities that you feel are alien to you and need to be better understood, we should all do that and Jamie offered some very salient points about the status of males, but at least offer some pretense of being concerned about the actual issues at hand not just the race or religion of those involved. Edited by bilbo (12 Nov 2015 5.16pm)
I've just been reading through the UKIP thread and spotted your comment bemoaning that London is now "more than 55% non white" and worries of being 'outnumbered at the ballot box' as if there's certain to be some kind of anti white hivemind amongst non whites and so it's okay to 'lump em all together' in one group. This just doesn't help. You evidentally feel very detached from people based on their race and religion. It's not healthy and it's clearly a motivator as to what topics you are drawn to and how you approach them. I'll leave it at that.
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| Jonny_Johnson Tel Aviv 12 Nov 15 6.42pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 6.09pm
Quote Jonny_Johnson at 12 Nov 2015 5.50pm
For all those that apologise for the Islamic culture of contempt and bury your head in the sands, perhaps you can subscribe to an alternate universe view ... Grow up. For an apologist like you, perhaps you should grow a pair and stop denying yourself reality. What do you see when you look in the mirror?
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| Hrolf The Ganger 12 Nov 15 7.01pm |
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Quote bilbo at 12 Nov 2015 6.30pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 6.03pm
Quote bilbo at 12 Nov 2015 4.29pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 12 Nov 2015 3.37pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 1.35pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 12 Nov 2015 10.59am
Quote elgrande at 11 Nov 2015 8.28pm
Now you see this is what I can not understand. And I don't think any one has tried to say all rapes are carried out by Muslim/pakistani men.
Ridiculous comparisons with a 1949 Israeli rape case and trying to play down the fact that Muslims participating in gang rape is a growing problem makes the left leaning on here look very silly and/or irresponsible. I doubt its actually a growing problem, but rather one that has achieved recent highlighting in the media and popularity. I wouldn't say that I was playing down Muslims or gang rape, but highlighting the fact that we tend to focus on rather convenient misdirections that allow us to place the blame on 'different cultures', rather than addressing the problem with all men in all societies. Focusing on the 12%, rather than the 100% of the problem is utterly stupid. The problem isn't with Islam or Muslims, its with men, irrespective of culture. Or are we also to presume that White British Light Entertainment also promotes a culture of rape. Of course it doesn't, the problem lies in all cultures and within 'male status and power within society and culture' - and pakistani and Muslim cultures are very male orientated power cultures, but we're not exactly far behind them. And it stems from exactly the same sources. Status, power, gender inequality, education and identity. The problem is in how we raise men, how men think about women and sex, regard women and sex, value women and sex. Its also not about 'winning arguements' but the reality of facts. We're arguing about a small percentage of offenders, based on a convenient correlation, because its easier than admitting that there is a massive problem in society with sexual violence and abuse aimed against women. Forgive me, but you seem to be doing cartwheels to avoid facts.
Your: "Muslim men either commit a disproportionate amount of rape or they don't. That is the beginning and end of it" comment could just as easily be: "Men either commit a disproportionate amount of rape (compared to women) or they don't. That is the beginning and end of it." You ought to get out of this ultra focused "drill down to the first minority I find and sod everything else" mindset at every turn. You do not particularly seem to care about or care to comment on sexual violence as a wider male issue which is a vital component of the discussion, it's simply a flippant "it's not rocket science". That's an insult to the vast numbers of victims who don't meet your checklist of racial or religious requirements. Fine, care about specific concerns within communities that you feel are alien to you and need to be better understood, we should all do that and Jamie offered some very salient points about the status of males, but at least offer some pretense of being concerned about the actual issues at hand not just the race or religion of those involved. Edited by bilbo (12 Nov 2015 5.16pm)
I've just been reading through the UKIP thread and spotted your comment bemoaning that London is now "more than 55% non white" and worries of being 'outnumbered at the ballot box' as if there's certain to be some kind of anti white hivemind amongst non whites and so it's okay to 'lump em all together' in one group. This just doesn't help. You evidentally feel very detached from people based on their race and religion. It's not healthy and it's clearly a motivator as to what topics you are drawn to and how you approach them. I'll leave it at that.
Hallelujah.
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| bilbo 12 Nov 15 7.04pm |
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Quote Jonny_Johnson at 12 Nov 2015 6.42pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Nov 2015 6.09pm
Quote Jonny_Johnson at 12 Nov 2015 5.50pm
For all those that apologise for the Islamic culture of contempt and bury your head in the sands, perhaps you can subscribe to an alternate universe view ... Grow up. For an apologist like you, perhaps you should grow a pair and stop denying yourself reality. What do you see when you look in the mirror? A reasonable human being I suspect.
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