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EU Renegotiation

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View elgrande's Profile elgrande Flag bedford 04 Feb 16 4.09pm Send a Private Message to elgrande Add elgrande as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

How would you define the indigenous people of the U.K?


The ones who have family or have grown up here(regardless of where they originated from before you start)...and maybe before the left decided that mass immigration was good for us.

 


always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 04 Feb 16 4.16pm

Originally posted by elgrande

The ones who have family or have grown up here(regardless of where they originated from before you start)...and maybe before the left decided that mass immigration was good for us.

I think you'll find that mass immigration isn't a 'leftie' ideal, after all aren't left wing ideologies tied in with betterment for workers?

Nope, mass immigration serves a right wing agenda.

Uncontrolled immigration drives down wages and increases the competition for jobs (especially low-skilled jobs), making the prospect of unemployment, low pay or the horrors of zero hours contracts much more likely for millions of ordinary workers.

Another way in which ordinary workers lose out through mass immigration is the increased pressure on local services such as health and education, on which they, and their children rely.


Corporations and rich employers benefit from the large labour surpluses created by mass uncontrolled immigration, because the increased competition for jobs allows them to drive down the wages they pay, therefore increasing their profit margins.

The profitability of the labour surplus is hardly a new concept. Karl Marx explained how capitalism benefits from surplus labour way back in the mid-19th Century. A large standing army of unemployed, provided with just enough welfare to keep them alive is absolutely fundamental to the modern neoliberalised capitalist system.

The wealthy minority are almost completely insulated from the negative effects of mass uncontrolled immigration. They don't even notice the extra pressure on services, because the majority of the executive class generally have private health plans and privately educate their kids.

What is more, they are much more likely to be dodging their taxes, so many amongst them don't even contribute towards the costs of providing these extra services, despite the fact that they are the ones benefiting most from mass uncontrolled immigration.

You've fallen for the spin of the press again I'm afraid.

Edited by nickgusset (04 Feb 2016 4.18pm)

12670115_10207074524553977_8428254540054138954_n.jpg Attachment: 12670115_10207074524553977_8428254540054138954_n.jpg (37.29Kb)

 

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View elgrande's Profile elgrande Flag bedford 04 Feb 16 4.32pm Send a Private Message to elgrande Add elgrande as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

I think you'll find that mass immigration isn't a 'leftie' ideal, after all aren't left wing ideologies tied in with betterment for workers?

Nope, mass immigration serves a right wing agenda.

Uncontrolled immigration drives down wages and increases the competition for jobs (especially low-skilled jobs), making the prospect of unemployment, low pay or the horrors of zero hours contracts much more likely for millions of ordinary workers.

Another way in which ordinary workers lose out through mass immigration is the increased pressure on local services such as health and education, on which they, and their children rely.


Corporations and rich employers benefit from the large labour surpluses created by mass uncontrolled immigration, because the increased competition for jobs allows them to drive down the wages they pay, therefore increasing their profit margins.

The profitability of the labour surplus is hardly a new concept. Karl Marx explained how capitalism benefits from surplus labour way back in the mid-19th Century. A large standing army of unemployed, provided with just enough welfare to keep them alive is absolutely fundamental to the modern neoliberalised capitalist system.

The wealthy minority are almost completely insulated from the negative effects of mass uncontrolled immigration. They don't even notice the extra pressure on services, because the majority of the executive class generally have private health plans and privately educate their kids.

What is more, they are much more likely to be dodging their taxes, so many amongst them don't even contribute towards the costs of providing these extra services, despite the fact that they are the ones benefiting most from mass uncontrolled immigration.

You've fallen for the spin of the press again I'm afraid.

Edited by nickgusset (04 Feb 2016 4.18pm)


While intake in what you are saying.....with the greatest respect. That's bollocks....the left are the ones calling for mass immigration... Hence Corbyn and his cronies visiting the camps in France.
And yes if you read my post,that his just what I am saying mass immigration affects the very people the left are supposed to protect.
In fact I was talking to someone today who owns a cleaning company.
He has had to lay off half a dozen cleaners recently, because of just that,the offices are employing people ( eastern Europeans) for half the price he was paying his workforce.
Which yes the company who are employing them for less are totally wrong.....but if they were not here they foul not do it.

 


always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 04 Feb 16 4.34pm

Originally posted by elgrande

The ones who have family or have grown up here(regardless of where they originated from before you start)...and maybe before the left decided that mass immigration was good for us.

By left, you mean the right of centre government of Tony Blair, who are more or less indistinguishable politically from the current Conservative party?

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View elgrande's Profile elgrande Flag bedford 04 Feb 16 4.36pm Send a Private Message to elgrande Add elgrande as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

By left, you mean the right of centre government of Tony Blair, who are more or less indistinguishable politically from the current Conservative party?

Maybe Jamie...but Corbyn has it on his agenda

 


always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 04 Feb 16 4.39pm

Originally posted by elgrande

Maybe Jamie...but Corbyn has it on his agenda

Corbyn's agenda is to help those fleeing war and persecution.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 04 Feb 16 4.40pm

Originally posted by elgrande


While intake in what you are saying.....with the greatest respect. That's bollocks....the left are the ones calling for mass immigration... Hence Corbyn and his cronies visiting the camps in France.
And yes if you read my post,that his just what I am saying mass immigration affects the very people the left are supposed to protect.
In fact I was talking to someone today who owns a cleaning company.
He has had to lay off half a dozen cleaners recently, because of just that,the offices are employing people ( eastern Europeans) for half the price he was paying his workforce.
Which yes the company who are employing them for less are totally wrong.....but if they were not here they foul not do it.

That sounds like capitalism, rather than leftist economics to me, using cheap labour to under cut the market.

Its corporate interests that drive the EU and this policy, which no one except the left wing were complaining about prior to the credit crunch. For as long as I can remember I've been banging on that EU migrant labour has been used to undercut the bargaining position of the UK working classes.

Don't mistake Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for left wing. Pro-Market, Pro-Capitalist corporate shills that's what New Labour was. That said, Blair did do a good smoke screen.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View elgrande's Profile elgrande Flag bedford 04 Feb 16 4.44pm Send a Private Message to elgrande Add elgrande as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

That sounds like capitalism, rather than leftist economics to me, using cheap labour to under cut the market.

Its corporate interests that drive the EU and this policy, which no one except the left wing were complaining about prior to the credit crunch. For as long as I can remember I've been banging on that EU migrant labour has been used to undercut the bargaining position of the UK working classes.

Don't mistake Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for left wing. Pro-Market, Pro-Capitalist corporate shills that's what New Labour was. That said, Blair did do a good smoke screen.

Well I agree with you on the EU labour point...which is the point I was making in the first place.

But I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the Calais point.
Because I do not believe that many there are fleeing persecution, economic migrants.

 


always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 04 Feb 16 4.46pm

Originally posted by elgrande

Maybe Jamie...but Corbyn has it on his agenda

Corbyn isn't in power, and isn't likely to be in power before the EU referendum, unless the Tory's really drop a total bollock. Corbyn can say what he likes, that's how opposition works, you don't actually have to do anything.

Same as when the Tories were stating they'd fix the economy in x years, but have only achieved increasing debt etc. Politics is about deceit, obfuscation and selling s**t to people, because they know that no one will ever want to admit to being duped.

All of them support their corporate paymasters, and all of them look vocal and almost 'radical' in opposition, being the 'new messiah come to rescue the party'.

But in truth, they don't give a f**k about anybody else.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 04 Feb 16 4.49pm

Originally posted by elgrande

Well I agree with you on the EU labour point...which is the point I was making in the first place.

But I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the Calais point.
Because I do not believe that many there are fleeing persecution, economic migrants.

Neither do I. I suspect some of them are, and they deserve the right to be assessed. Problem is, what do you do with the others. You can't send them back, you can't just leave them as 'Frances Problem' either (because they won't be once they get across the channel).

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View elgrande's Profile elgrande Flag bedford 04 Feb 16 4.49pm Send a Private Message to elgrande Add elgrande as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Corbyn isn't in power, and isn't likely to be in power before the EU referendum, unless the Tory's really drop a total bollock. Corbyn can say what he likes, that's how opposition works, you don't actually have to do anything.

Same as when the Tories were stating they'd fix the economy in x years, but have only achieved increasing debt etc. Politics is about deceit, obfuscation and selling s**t to people, because they know that no one will ever want to admit to being duped.

All of them support their corporate paymasters, and all of them look vocal and almost 'radical' in opposition, being the 'new messiah come to rescue the party'.

But in truth, they don't give a f**k about anybody else.

I could not agree more,I have voted Tory all my life, but hate this government with a passion.

 


always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 04 Feb 16 4.51pm

Originally posted by elgrande

Well I agree with you on the EU labour point...which is the point I was making in the first place.

But I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the Calais point.
Because I do not believe that many there are fleeing persecution, economic migrants.


Although this doesn't cover Calais specifically it does break down the numbers a bit.
[Link]
62%

Far from being propelled by economic migrants, this crisis is mostly about refugees. The assumption by the likes of Hammond, May and others is that the majority of those trying to reach Europe are fleeing poverty, which is not considered by the international community as a good enough reason to move to another country. Whereas in fact, by the end of July, 62% of those who had reached Europe by boat this year were from Syria, Eritrea and Afghanistan, according to figures compiled by the UN. These are countries torn apart by war, dictatorial oppression, and religious extremism – and, in Syria’s case, all three. Their citizens almost always have the legal right to refuge in Europe. And if you add to the mix those coming from Darfur, Iraq, Somalia, and some parts of Nigeria – then the total proportion of migrants likely to qualify for asylum rises to well over 70%.

 

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