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April 19 2024 7.04am

Apple vs the FBI

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 18 Feb 16 2.31pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Having re-read the case, that's not what is happening here. The FBI want to force Apple to change functionality on their phones that restrict the FBI from obtaining information on any Apple phone. Not just this particular phone.

With a warrant, Apple would be legally obliged to provide them with the data requested. But what the FBI seem to want is Apple to remove the lockout and non-electronic login systems from all their phones.

Which also means they'd be more vulnerable to exploitation and hacking.

That's not how I read it. I understand it being a special one-off OS amendment, installed only on this one phone, to prevent it erasing itself after 10 incorrect passcodes, to allow them to do a blunt attack on the phone and keep trying passcodes until one works and the phone is unlocked

 

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View Lyons550's Profile Lyons550 Flag Shirley 18 Feb 16 2.55pm Send a Private Message to Lyons550 Add Lyons550 as a friend

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

Absolutely right. The notion of 'if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to hide' is ridiculous because firstly, the 'state' should have absolutely no right whatsoever to access your private information unless it can prove to a court otherwise and even then the reasons need to be pretty f*cking compelling. Supporting such a notion gives carte-blanche to the use of covert surveillance. Secondly, as Jamie rightly points out, the use of information so acquired can be used to make you appear 'more guilty' (or at least cast doubts over your innocence) even if you haven't actually done anything wrong.

The default position, in a so-called 'free society', must always be that the individual's right to privacy is utterly paramount and inviolable unless there is irrefutable evidence to the contraryand that the bar should be set very, very high to allow that principle to be overridden.

completely take on board the points that Jamie and you have made. However the stance that privacy should be paramount just in case there's a million to 1 shot that an individual could be wrongly locked up as a result is just as absurd as the "if you've nothing to hide then there's no issue".

About the rights to privacy...they exist just simply done use services that store your data...that way you have the privacy.

That's why I'd be open to a change in the terms and conditions for services that state if you are a slave to fashion and want the coolest device because everyone has it but don't want to retain your right to privacy then you have a choice...choose this product or don't...whats more important to you...

I'm sure there would be a 'middle ground' found that both sides will agree to...this is just the start of the 'sparring'.

Edited by Lyons550 (18 Feb 2016 2.59pm)

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 18 Feb 16 5.21pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

completely take on board the points that Jamie and you have made. However the stance that privacy should be paramount just in case there's a million to 1 shot that an individual could be wrongly locked up as a result is just as absurd as the "if you've nothing to hide then there's no issue".

Except its not a million to one chance at all. Even death row doesn't have a million to one ratio for innocent vs guilty.

The problem is compounded by the fact it might take a year to get to trial, if you don't plead out (and get a criminal record). During which time you may lose your job. You'll also have to spend a fortune in legal fees, unless you want a public defender (who'll probably has little experience).

In fact if you plead not guilty, you'll probably spend more than a few nights in lockup - waiting for the bail hearing, because the States Attorney will likely refuse. And lock up in US cities can be more dangerous than prison.

The prosecution and police, once they've decided its you, will only present evidence towards your guilt. For many the option is plead guilty to something they wouldn't be proven guilty of, or face several nights in lock up, possible loss of employment and bankrupting legal costs.

The legal system in the US is massively unfair to the poor and ordinary man.

Originally posted by Lyons550

About the rights to privacy...they exist just simply done use services that store your data...that way you have the privacy.

That's why I'd be open to a change in the terms and conditions for services that state if you are a slave to fashion and want the coolest device because everyone has it but don't want to retain your right to privacy then you have a choice...choose this product or don't...whats more important to you...

Its not practical really to do that. I believe that sufficient provision exists in law that the Law Enforcement have sufficient power to pursue criminals and to protect the publics interest. Its impossible not to produce a digital footprint, which is why terrorists and criminals tend to go to very extreme lengths to 'hide in plain sight' or disappear.

Plus do you know what happens to people who live like that, they get flagged up as terrorist suspects by algorithms, because they're also the kind of people who tend to obfuscate themselves within society, keep as low a profile online and digitally as possible.

The lack of information and presence of information are both systems by which you detect 'suspects'.

Plus, we 'champion freedom' and the idea of innocent until proven guilty, free speech and the right to avoid self incrimination. In fact the UK is one of the most monitored countries in the world. Cameras in the streets, security services monitoring emails, phone calls, spending patterns and so o

The irony is that in the face of terrorism that promotes an impossible to achieve tyranny, we have massively surrendered the ideas of our own freedom and trust in the face of a very occasional fear.

Originally posted by Lyons550

I'm sure there would be a 'middle ground' found that both sides will agree to...this is just the start of the 'sparring'.

I would say the middle ground has long since been crossed in the US, thanks to the Patriot Act and mission creep, where by organisations like the NSA are routinely passing information on to other Federal Agencies that isn't of interest to the NSA - And said Federal Agencies creating 'pet Criminal Informants' to then legitimise the information.

Essentially you have a situation where the government is effectively spying on its citizens, passing information on to other agencies about them, and they want more access.

Governments should trust and respect the people they represent, target the guilty and promote the values that they extoll

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 18 Feb 16 5.31pm

Originally posted by npn

That's not how I read it. I understand it being a special one-off OS amendment, installed only on this one phone, to prevent it erasing itself after 10 incorrect passcodes, to allow them to do a blunt attack on the phone and keep trying passcodes until one works and the phone is unlocked

Sounds expensive, as an IT contractor, I'd imagine that's not just a 'quick fix', given the phone is locked. Wonder what they want off of it.

Basically, the FBI can't hack it. That's pretty sad given they've got a massive counter-terrorist and cybercrimes responsibility.

 


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Inapickle Flag South West 18 Feb 16 8.31pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

Clearly it'd have to be obtained via a warrant and with justifiable suspicion. I'm not for the services having cart blanche access only in criminal cases.

The simple answer for people who are against this is not to have a phone or electronic device; remove themselves from the web and go back to pen paper and talking to people face to face...it was only 25 years ago where this was the norm!

..arrhh blackmail.

 

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View Lyons550's Profile Lyons550 Flag Shirley 18 Feb 16 11.03pm Send a Private Message to Lyons550 Add Lyons550 as a friend

Originally posted by Inapickle

..arrhh blackmail.

Not at all is a choice

 


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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 19 Feb 16 11.06am Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

If a document was in a safe they'd have to break in, rather than ask the company who made it to crack it.

 


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View richard shaw (og)65's Profile richard shaw (og)65 Flag my minds eye 19 Feb 16 2.15pm Send a Private Message to richard shaw (og)65 Add richard shaw (og)65 as a friend

Originally posted by npn

That's not how I read it. I understand it being a special one-off OS amendment, installed only on this one phone, to prevent it erasing itself after 10 incorrect passcodes, to allow them to do a blunt attack on the phone and keep trying passcodes until one works and the phone is unlocked

I wouldn't like to be the intern who has to do that

 


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Hoof Hearted 19 Feb 16 4.16pm

I think Apple will crumble eventually.

 

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View on me shed son's Profile on me shed son Flag Krakow 20 Feb 16 4.27pm Send a Private Message to on me shed son Add on me shed son as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I would say the middle ground has long since been crossed in the US, thanks to the Patriot Act and mission creep, where by organisations like the NSA are routinely passing information on to other Federal Agencies that isn't of interest to the NSA - And said Federal Agencies creating 'pet Criminal Informants' to then legitimise the information.

Essentially you have a situation where the government is effectively spying on its citizens, passing information on to other agencies about them, and they want more access.

Governments should trust and respect the people they represent, target the guilty and promote the values that they extoll

I agree 100% Jamie. I would say that already the government has far too much power over us and people are lining up to give it more. I just hope people wake up and realize that government is supposed to be serving us before it's too late.

 

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