The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Rudi Hedman  Caterham 26 Jun 16 9.53am |
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Originally posted by sickboy
Going by some posts on here i reckon we have a really good case to have the cup final replayed. After all we were slightly, percentage wise, in the minority inside wembley but the majority got their wish and manure won. They also only scored 2 goals to our 1 which is the narrowest possible winning margin so it should be called void and we should go again and again until we get what we want and win the cup. I want the 1990 replayed. Well not watch it again but replay the match. Or start it with a penalty after tripping GT running away from goal but still inside the box. If the petition gets its way ze Germans might want the '66 WC Final replayed. The ball didn't bounce over the line. It was bang on the line. But then again being in semi final after semi final they don't dwell on losing like we do.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 26 Jun 16 9.57am |
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Originally posted by Leicestershireeagle
I've been lurking, reading, taking this thread in. Whilst I won't indulge in the willy waving, I will say this; not all us young 'uns who voted to Remain are sour, or bitter, about the specific decision to leave the EU; currencies bounce back, markets recover etc. What I think is happening, if I can draw on anecdotal evidence, is there's a generation disillusioned with the country they live in, and the social commentary this whole thing has provided; it has supposedly legitimized racism, xenophobia and discrimination. I'm far more aggrieved at the turn out for young people than I am the older generation deciding a future they won't get to see, so my generation (and younger) have only theirselves to blame. The disinterest in politics is a lengthy subject, whether that be social disconnect, political betrayal or the fact that we're particularly guilty of taking things for granted, but all of this has been exacerbated by one thing; poor campaign messages and a lack of leadership, particularly for the Remain Campaign. It's abdunatly clear that the Leave Campaign used lies, misinformation and downright myths to win people over, and the Remain campaign was woefully undercooked, lacked conviction and failed to actually influence fence-sitters. Personally, despite voting Remain, I have no issue in principle with leaving the EU, but a hell of a lot of my friends and people I know voted in an attempt to show solidarity and defiance against a UK where Nigel Farage can be taken seriously. Fundamentally, it disgusts a lot of us to see people beating their chest, proclaiming they've got their country back, calling out Europeans to pack their bags and reveling in a mindset that has no place in a modern world. Not all leavers are racists, and I'd certainly not wish to undermine anyone's opinions or views, particularly fellow HOL'ers, but to say we're all sour and bitter is just wrong. We're disillusioned to see the country so split, for so many social dinosaurs legitimized and for so many to be hoodwinked by myths and misinformation. It is what it is; I don't like it, I'll continue to be disheartened by some of the views and actions others are taking, and I worry about where this rabbit hole leads, but all any of us can do is role up our sleeves and get on with it. Well put young man
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Jun 16 10.01am |
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Originally posted by Leicestershireeagle
I've been lurking, reading, taking this thread in. Whilst I won't indulge in the willy waving, I will say this; not all us young 'uns who voted to Remain are sour, or bitter, about the specific decision to leave the EU; currencies bounce back, markets recover etc. What I think is happening, if I can draw on anecdotal evidence, is there's a generation disillusioned with the country they live in, and the social commentary this whole thing has provided; it has supposedly legitimized racism, xenophobia and discrimination. I'm far more aggrieved at the turn out for young people than I am the older generation deciding a future they won't get to see, so my generation (and younger) have only theirselves to blame. The disinterest in politics is a lengthy subject, whether that be social disconnect, political betrayal or the fact that we're particularly guilty of taking things for granted, but all of this has been exacerbated by one thing; poor campaign messages and a lack of leadership, particularly for the Remain Campaign. It's abdunatly clear that the Leave Campaign used lies, misinformation and downright myths to win people over, and the Remain campaign was woefully undercooked, lacked conviction and failed to actually influence fence-sitters. Personally, despite voting Remain, I have no issue in principle with leaving the EU, but a hell of a lot of my friends and people I know voted in an attempt to show solidarity and defiance against a UK where Nigel Farage can be taken seriously. Fundamentally, it disgusts a lot of us to see people beating their chest, proclaiming they've got their country back, calling out Europeans to pack their bags and reveling in a mindset that has no place in a modern world. Not all leavers are racists, and I'd certainly not wish to undermine anyone's opinions or views, particularly fellow HOL'ers, but to say we're all sour and bitter is just wrong. We're disillusioned to see the country so split, for so many social dinosaurs legitimized and for so many to be hoodwinked by myths and misinformation. It is what it is; I don't like it, I'll continue to be disheartened by some of the views and actions others are taking, and I worry about where this rabbit hole leads, but all any of us can do is role up our sleeves and get on with it. The % of remain to leave turns at 50% around about 40 years of age. Will they not live to see the effects of this? What about even a 50 or 60 year old? I haven't heard or know of anyone in a BNP type 'send 'em all back' type view. I'd be appalled by that and give them a wide berth. It's only on the tv I've heard it being stoked up. Very irresponsible. Even if there was a cut in freedom of movement I consider people already here deserve to stay, likewise Brits elsewhere in the EU. If there's a sudden rise of EU immigrants over 2 years of article 50 then we have to live with it. EU workers here have taken a legal opportunity. I just don't want it to go on indefinitely and uncontrolled, and when the living wage is introduced in 2020, what then when another 100% or 200% wage increase for East Europeans is dangled in front of them? Unemployment for low paid British workers and more benefit dependency? I do agree about rolling our sleeves up and when plenty of melodramatic drama queens notice their lives aren't affected by this, we can all move on. Edited by Rudi Hedman (26 Jun 2016 10.07am)
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| matt_himself Matataland 26 Jun 16 10.12am |
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Originally posted by Leicestershireeagle
I've been lurking, reading, taking this thread in. Whilst I won't indulge in the willy waving, I will say this; not all us young 'uns who voted to Remain are sour, or bitter, about the specific decision to leave the EU; currencies bounce back, markets recover etc. What I think is happening, if I can draw on anecdotal evidence, is there's a generation disillusioned with the country they live in, and the social commentary this whole thing has provided; it has supposedly legitimized racism, xenophobia and discrimination. I'm far more aggrieved at the turn out for young people than I am the older generation deciding a future they won't get to see, so my generation (and younger) have only theirselves to blame. The disinterest in politics is a lengthy subject, whether that be social disconnect, political betrayal or the fact that we're particularly guilty of taking things for granted, but all of this has been exacerbated by one thing; poor campaign messages and a lack of leadership, particularly for the Remain Campaign. It's abdunatly clear that the Leave Campaign used lies, misinformation and downright myths to win people over, and the Remain campaign was woefully undercooked, lacked conviction and failed to actually influence fence-sitters. Personally, despite voting Remain, I have no issue in principle with leaving the EU, but a hell of a lot of my friends and people I know voted in an attempt to show solidarity and defiance against a UK where Nigel Farage can be taken seriously. Fundamentally, it disgusts a lot of us to see people beating their chest, proclaiming they've got their country back, calling out Europeans to pack their bags and reveling in a mindset that has no place in a modern world. Not all leavers are racists, and I'd certainly not wish to undermine anyone's opinions or views, particularly fellow HOL'ers, but to say we're all sour and bitter is just wrong. We're disillusioned to see the country so split, for so many social dinosaurs legitimized and for so many to be hoodwinked by myths and misinformation. It is what it is; I don't like it, I'll continue to be disheartened by some of the views and actions others are taking, and I worry about where this rabbit hole leads, but all any of us can do is role up our sleeves and get on with it. This is not about racism and it disgusts me that the losing side is using language and imagary you did above 'chest beating', etc. I love this 'hoodwinked' argument. Who 'hoodwinked' who? I would suggest that if you venture to the post industrial cities and towns who overwhelmingly voted out, the people who voted felt they were 'hoodwinked' by EU and establishment policies. Free migration of EU labour has reduced jobs and reduced wages. There is a massive divide between the urban metropolis' and towns, with an urban elite forcing a social engineering programme on people who are told that they are racist, xenophobic, homophobic or some other sort of 'phobic' if they question it. This vote was a crashing rejection of the establishment and its agenda. I ask you the following. If the EU is such a good idea, why is no one else in the World copying it? Could it be because of the high employment, particularly in youth unemployment? The fundamental flaws in the Euro? The fact that 25 plus unelected commissioners control vast legislation that affects our lives massively? That the EU has not had its accounts signed off in 21 years? Or, more pertinently, that it is completely beyond reform because it knows that it's destruction is change. I would urge you to think about the above and if you want unity, try and understand the core reasons why this all happened.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Leicestershireeagle South Leicestershire 26 Jun 16 10.17am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
The % of remain to leave turns at 50% around about 40 years of age. Will they not live to see the effects of this? What about even a 50 or 60 year old? I haven't heard or know of anyone in a BNP type 'send 'em all back' type view. I'd be appalled by that and give them a wide berth. It's only on the tv I've heard it being stoked up. Very irresponsible. Even if there was a cut in freedom of movement I consider people already here deserve to stay, likewise Brits elsewhere in the EU. If there's a sudden rise of EU immigrants over 2 years of article 50 then we have to live with it. EU workers here have taken a legal opportunity. I just don't want it to go on indefinitely and uncontrolled, and when the living wage is introduced in 2020, what then when another 100% or 200% wage increase for East Europeans is dangled in front of them? Unemployment for low paid British workers and more benefit dependency? I do agree about rolling our sleeves up and when plenty of melodramatic drama queens notice their lives aren't affected by this, we can all move on. Edited by Rudi Hedman (26 Jun 2016 10.07am) I was more referring to the generation beyond that; it seems to be a common complaint from the younger generations, so I was attempting to balance that with my opinion that the poor turn out for younger voters was far more disheartening. There are plenty of stories and anecdotes out there of racism occurring in conjunction with the result; I dare say they would have happened before, with the referendum irrelevant, so in terms of cause and effect it's a bit iffy. The overall point was, that there's a legitimate fear we've legitimized a dangerous mindset. Someone like yourself Rudi, or the vast majority in this thread and other political discussions on HOL, are far more well-read and have a better understanding of the subject than Average Joe. Irrespective of our personal views, things are normally discussed in a heated but mature manner (ish); you and I, and our fellow HOL'ers aren't the "problem". We've all had the foresight to research, to understand, to make an informed decision. Like I said, I don't really want to join the debate on what's right and wrong, what the future looks like or where we should turn now; there's plenty of people on here who understand this landscape far more than I, hence why I like to lurk and read these sorts of threads to learn and appreciate the varying viewpoints. My post was very much about dismissing the idea that all Remain voters are bitter and angry, and actually, it's a far greater and deeper sense of social disillusion than simply being miffed about leaving the EU.
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Jun 16 10.22am |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
This is not about racism and it disgusts me that the losing side is using language and imagary you did above 'chest beating', etc. I love this 'hoodwinked' argument. Who 'hoodwinked' who? I would suggest that if you venture to the post industrial cities and towns who overwhelmingly voted out, the people who voted felt they were 'hoodwinked' by EU and establishment policies. Free migration of EU labour has reduced jobs and reduced wages. There is a massive divide between the urban metropolis' and towns, with an urban elite forcing a social engineering programme on people who are told that they are racist, xenophobic, homophobic or some other sort of 'phobic' if they question it. This vote was a crashing rejection of the establishment and its agenda. The political elite would rather not. Remember Labour MP Emily Thornberry in Kent tweeting picture of a white van and England flag outside an ordinary 1970's semi detached house?
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Jun 16 10.29am |
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Originally posted by Leicestershireeagle
I was more referring to the generation beyond that; it seems to be a common complaint from the younger generations, so I was attempting to balance that with my opinion that the poor turn out for younger voters was far more disheartening. There are plenty of stories and anecdotes out there of racism occurring in conjunction with the result; I dare say they would have happened before, with the referendum irrelevant, so in terms of cause and effect it's a bit iffy. The overall point was, that there's a legitimate fear we've legitimized a dangerous mindset. Someone like yourself Rudi, or the vast majority in this thread and other political discussions on HOL, are far more well-read and have a better understanding of the subject than Average Joe. Irrespective of our personal views, things are normally discussed in a heated but mature manner (ish); you and I, and our fellow HOL'ers aren't the "problem". We've all had the foresight to research, to understand, to make an informed decision. Like I said, I don't really want to join the debate on what's right and wrong, what the future looks like or where we should turn now; there's plenty of people on here who understand this landscape far more than I, hence why I like to lurk and read these sorts of threads to learn and appreciate the varying viewpoints. My post was very much about dismissing the idea that all Remain voters are bitter and angry, and actually, it's a far greater and deeper sense of social disillusion than simply being miffed about leaving the EU. I get your point on social disillusion. It'll blow over when people have more things to think about in their lives than they have this weekend and after a holiday. I raised the poor turn out from younger voters to Mapletree's daughter on Friday night after she blamed us. She agreed. And what if there wasn't a 48 hour extension to registering to vote? The winning margin for leave would've been wider. What do they want? An email sent to their smart phones with only that inconvenience to their busy lives of checking facebook, checking facebook, checking facebook, tweeting pictures of lunch, an incoherent post on facebook or twitter. The sense of entitlement and spoilt background of younger people is for all to see this weekend.
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| matt_himself Matataland 26 Jun 16 10.33am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
The political elite would rather not. Remember Labour MP Emily Thornberry in Kent tweeting picture of a white van and England flag outside an ordinary 1970's semi detached house? Exactly. The political elite has taken a kicking. Andrew Marr was a delight this morning. IDS, Sturgeon, Polly f***ing Toynbee, none of them had a clue what was going on or what to do about it. The only one who came across with any principles was Hilary Benn. Edited by matt_himself (26 Jun 2016 10.34am)
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| Hoof Hearted 26 Jun 16 10.39am | |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
It is my kids that are frightening me Hoof, I don't think you are keeping up. I am listening to them, it's a shame more people don't do that. Lucky old you, you bought a house when is was worth 1/21st of the current value. You won't find many 23 year olds now that will be able to buy a house, and fewer in the future. Edited by Mapletree (25 Jun 2016 2.55pm) You keep making up other reasons, but at some point it will dawn on you why what I've said is actually so. Basic rule of economics..... Excessive demand causes prices to rise. London house prices are rising higher than the rest of the country because more immigrants are drawn there like a fcuking magnet. Reductionism doesn't cut it with you because you are stupid. Ever since you arrived on here you've been having a go at "me and my sort" as you put it, like we're some lucky recipients of life's golden ticket. You seem to think it was easy for me in 1977 to get a house? Me and the Mrs had to save and scrimp to get the deposit by not going out having home made sandwiches for lunch, spending holidays working in a pub etc. Kids today don't want to do that, they prefer to whinge to their stupid parents who have given them too much and spoilt them. I'll bet many of the moaners are living it up at Glasto right now. There have been loads of events in my life where I could have thrown in the towel, but I didn't, Redundancy after I relocated to Bristol wasn't a nice thing, but instead of crying and whingeing I got on with life and started afresh. Stop listening to your whiney spoilt kids - tell them to get off their arses and earn the money to make their lives better instead of moaning to Dad.
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Jun 16 10.46am |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
Exactly. The political elite has taken a kicking. Andrew Marr was a delight this morning. IDS, Sturgeon, Polly f***ing Toynbee, none of them had a clue what was going on or what to do about it. The only one who came across with any principles was Hilary Benn. Edited by matt_himself (26 Jun 2016 10.34am) If Benn wasn't so remain I wouldn't mind him. He still thinks that EU membership allows renationalisation when it won't. Andrew Neill has just given Blair a grilling on housing during his tenure. He was very uncomfortable and obviously couldn't answer the question and is guilty as charged. Neill slam dunked him by saying this is what swung it for leave. Big govt targets and numbers eventually came back to bite us, he just got out before the financial crisis.
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Slimey Toad  Karsiyaka, North Cyprus 26 Jun 16 10.49am |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
Exactly. The political elite has taken a kicking. Andrew Marr was a delight this morning. IDS, Sturgeon, Polly f***ing Toynbee, none of them had a clue what was going on or what to do about it. The only one who came across with any principles was Hilary Benn. Edited by matt_himself (26 Jun 2016 10.34am) Yep, a Bennite has sacked a Benn.
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| Hoof Hearted 26 Jun 16 10.52am | |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
17 year olds have the happy knack of asking questions Rubin. They have a right to their views, which are often well informed. Social media can help this, albeit needs to be treated with caution. But only one of my children is 17. If you read my thread I spoke of my children not just one child. The reasons for the high price of property are multiple but not especially driven by EU immigration. There is, for example, an enormous bank of unused building land in London that is being stockpiled by speculators. There has also been speculation, mainly by Russian and Middle Eastern buyers, on houses themselves. And London has 10 times as many job vacancies as the other large cities in the UK, drawing people to it. My children will not be happy with the decision that has been taken, of that both they and I are quite sure. Let's hope we can keep the damage to the minimum. The speculation by foreign investors is driving up the top end prices. I never saw myself as a candidate for being a house owner in Chelsea, Knightsbridge, Pimlico etc.... if your kids are setting their sights there maybe they ought to rein in their ambition. Land banking isn't "enormous" in London at all, you are hyping it to reinforce your point my friend. I already told you that London was a magnet to immigrants because of its magical qualities, history, higher pay etc. Refusing to accept that unfettered and uncontrolled immigration has led to an excessive demand for housing especially in London/SE is just sticking your head in the sand.
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