I agree that she's not had an easy time of it and has a sense of National Pride. She's on a hiding to nothing with this attempt at a compromise deal that's clearly going to be a substandard version of what's already in place though.

A better opening salvo would've been to say "we're leaving and that's it" and make the EU come to us with workable proposals for a deal. Of course Boris and company lost their bulldog spirit the moment the result came in though and that instantly made us look weak on the world stage. Hence Theresa as PM. Well intentioned no doubt but I don't think many hold out hope for a deal that benefits for the country.

Isn't that democracy though? Unless you are talking Germany 1933, a general election keeps you in power with a mandate for only so long. The nation changes its mind: out you go and the country goes another direction.

That said, I am torn on this. I would love a new vote as I am solid remain. However, I accept the football analogy. You don't get to play the game again just because many of your players were injured. This vote is not like a general election as it was a one-off once in a generation thing.

Also, I think it impossible to formulate wording for a new vote that does not unfairly discriminate against leavers.

Last time round, the remain camp ran a hopeless campaign. They stood in front of the cameras, over-estimated the intelligence of the electorate and tried to argue the points logically. Leave avoided that. Instead they ran a simple campaign with Boris just standing there repeating the mantra "Take Back Control" over and over again. It worked a treat. With the European migration crisis happening at the same time, leave couldn't lose. I am surprised it was so tight.

If we have another vote, I am not sure leave would win. For one thing, the country is exhausted with it all. All remain have to say is: what you have seen is just the beginning; the agreement that paves the way for the real negotiations. We have years and years more of this to come. In the meantime, there is economic uncertainty. This time such statements of the obvious will not be dismissed as "project fear", even by the dumbest of the electorate.

The last referendum went the wrong way for me, but in one way it was marvellous. People crawling out of the council estates such as the one I was raised in; those who do not usually vote actually putting their cross on the ballot paper. While many voted for the wrong reasons, I believe the hitherto self-disenfranchised voted overwhelmingly to leave and swung it. I am not sure they will bother to crawl out of bed a second time.

The other thing that may well defeat leave is demographics. Since the last referendum, 1.5 million people in the UK have died. Most of them are old; and of those who voted, more voted leave than remain. Meanwhile, a substantial number of those who were too young to vote the last time round this time are of majority age. They are largely remainers.

Yes, that's known as General Elections. Happens regularly as far as I know.

My feeling is that we are in this mess due the fact that Barnier was a better negotiator than our lot and that we should have started out with a hardline instead of allowing Barnier to dictate almost everything

Have you been? Great place but rather impenetrable for a Westener imho.

Anyhow you make it sound like they pulled themselves up entirely by their own bootstraps Greg Dyke style which isn't entirely true..

During the Meiji period (1868–1912), leaders inaugurated a new Western-based education system for all young people, sent thousands of students to the United States and Europe, and hired more than 3,000 Westerners to teach modern science, mathematics, technology, and foreign languages in Japan.

If you'd been about 100+ years ago you could have worked out there as a teacher (but then perhaps you already did, I don't know).

[Link]

and what are these policies you think I happily embrace? I don't embrace them, I merely attempt to identify, understand and acknowledge them.

Edited by steve1984 (12 Dec 2018 12.12pm)

Get her out and let's have a primeminister that believes in Brexit!

A remainer should never have been put in charge.

The gangster ring of the EU might actually take us seriously instead of our constant capitulation.