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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 21 May 19 5.30pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

As the EU elections are a distraction and a waste of time and money they will do no such thing.

Only the highly motivated will bother to turn out so they will tell us nothing and mean even less.

Well the main elections vote normally lower and they get to decide the party(s) in control of the country....the actual referendum which decided we were to leave was actually higher than normal general election votes.

2015 general election 66.1% per cent of registered voters
2017 general election 68.7% per cent of registered voters
2016 referendum vote: 72.2 per cent of registered voters


Edited by Stirlingsays (21 May 2019 5.36pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 21 May 19 5.41pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Well the main elections vote normally lower and they get to decide the party(s) in control of the country....the actual referendum which decided we were to leave was actually higher than normal general election votes.

2015 general election 66.1% per cent of registered voters
2017 general election 68.7% per cent of registered voters
2016 referendum vote: 72.2 per cent of registered voters

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 May 2019 5.36pm)

Quite.

And if we have a second referendum, with Remain as an option, then that turn out will be much lower. Destroying any validity it might have.

Effectively destroying democracy in this country. Is this what Remainers want? For those of who voted Leave to have our faith in the process destroyed completely?

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Maine Eagle's Profile Maine Eagle Flag USA 21 May 19 5.46pm Send a Private Message to Maine Eagle Add Maine Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

But this is the narrative that I struggle with. How can you re-run a vote on leaving the EU and still ask people to believe in our democracy?

I actually believe that it would be better for the country for Parliament to just revoke A50. We can then vote in a party with a manifesto promise to start it all off again and our loathing remains focused on politicans.

But a second referendum with Remain as an option? I can only speak for myself but I will not vote/or spoil the ballot paper.. And actively encourage everybody I know to do similar.

And you get a Remain victory. Probably by a huge margin but on a substantially reduced turn out.

Why would that second vote solve anything? I genuinely struggle to get my head around why anybody in their right mind could honestly believe that making us vote again solves a single part of this? All it does it make matters 100 times worse. It destroys us. Brexit does not fade away. It haunts any and everything that happens in the UK.

It scares me. It genuinely does.

A second referendum with a Remain option would be the most catastrophic peace-time event in the UK's history. And I suspect herald the end of the UK in any kind of recognisable form.

Stabbed in the back narratives poison everybody. Including those who wield the knife in the first place.

You have a second vote because you have to, there is no other way out of this.

Revoking article 50 would finally destroy the tory party as we know it as half of them would resign immediately, so it would be one way to kill off that endangered species.

I totally hear you on a second referendum with remain as an option. There are 2 options here, 1 is a vote to pick a way to leave only, and the 2nd has an option to remain aswell.

If the leave campaign had not waged a dirty war full of lies, mistruths and dishonesty AND if there had generally been more public information available about the impact on the economy from leaving the EU, I would agree remain should definitely not be an option.

However the 350 mil NHS bus driving around sticks in my craw, and it is simply a fact that a lot more is now known about Brexit than was in 2016.

If democracy can hold sway in 2016, and one can fight for this concept, then it can also hold sway in 2019. The will of the people may have changed, Matov. Is your 2016 self more important than your 2019 self? Votes count the same in 2019 as they did in 2016.

The problem with the 2016 vote is that it was undeliverable. It had no mechanism to implementation.

As I said earlier, I am up for a straight re-do of leave/remain, and then as a second part (which if it had been included in 2016 we would have left the EU already) options on how to leave - WA/no deal/norway + or whatever it may be.

Those options would have clear paths to implementation, which was missing in 2016 and is why we are in this mess.

 


Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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Park Road Flag 21 May 19 5.53pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You will keep hearing it until you start to recognise that it is true. Whilst you might have voted to leave without a deal, you are not all those who voted and not even all those who voted leave. We (not you) voted in a Parliament, and not a government, and whatever they finally decide is what will actually happen. That's the way it works in the UK.


Oooh! aren't we the authoritative one...Once again, my arrogant friend - just because you think it is so, doesn't mean it is...
And you will be hearing that until you recognise it's true...

Edited by Park Road (21 May 2019 6.02pm)

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 21 May 19 6.06pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle


Is your 2016 self more important than your 2019 self? Votes count the same in 2019 as they did in 2016.

But clearly, they would not. I voted in 2016 to leave. As did over 50% of the others taking part in that vote. We won. End of. We need to leave. Deal or no deal. There were no serious issues around the validity of the voting process on the day and everybody went along in good faith that the result would be implemented.

Yet you want me to vote again. Would my vote in 2019 mean more than it did in 2016? Of course not. Asking me to vote again actually makes my vote less valid because if I do not like the result, then I don't have to accept it. Why should I? Why would a second referendum settle anything?

This is the point. A second referendum, irrespective of the vote, achieves nothing positive. Even if Leave win, in a straight forward re-run, people like you will come up with another excuse not to respect the result. Or will you not have your fingers crossed this time? Will you really, really, really mean it? Heart crossed and hope to die if you are lying?

Leave or Remain has been settled. Done and dusted. If Parilament want to f*** us over, then at least want them to do it whilst looking us in the eye. But not another vote. It crushes us. There is no positive outcome from it.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Maine Eagle's Profile Maine Eagle Flag USA 21 May 19 6.10pm Send a Private Message to Maine Eagle Add Maine Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

Quite.

And if we have a second referendum, with Remain as an option, then that turn out will be much lower. Destroying any validity it might have.

Effectively destroying democracy in this country. Is this what Remainers want? For those of who voted Leave to have our faith in the process destroyed completely?

If there is a second referendum with remain as an option, abstaining doesnt help your position, Matov.

Brexit could easily pass once again, and this time with a method on how to deliver it also being voted on. Then all of your wildest dreams and fantasies will be realized - actually leaving the EU, which no doubt will solve all of the problems in everyone's lives in the UK.

In case you cannot tell, I am being glib there. Everyone has their knickers in a twist over Brexit, and it will probably actually make your life worse, but therein lies the not so delicious irony of this whole s***show.

Not voting is a bit like taking your football home in a huff because the ref gave a dodgy yellow card against you.

If things go that way, every brexiteer should get there and vote in what they believe in.

If you wouldnt want to vote because you know you would now lose, then please dont play the "respect democracy" card, as the democratic choice in 2019, with the 350 mil NHS bus now sitting in a garage somewhere, must also then be respected?

 


Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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ChrisGC Flag Wantage 21 May 19 6.16pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Only a fool admires a murderer.

If you talk out against trump, he goes after you on Twitter.

If you talk out against Putin he sends some guys with nerve agents to murder you.

Don’t be a fool.

Sorry, forgot they you'd cornered that market on this thread.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 21 May 19 6.17pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

If you wouldn't want to vote because you know you would now lose, then please dont play the "respect democracy" card, as the democratic choice in 2019, with the 350 mil NHS bus now sitting in a garage somewhere, must also then be respected?

But if my vote in 2016 counts for nothing, why would I bother voting again on the same question? Seriously. Or was I a moron on June 23rd 2016 for believing that this was it? That the result would be implemented?

How on earth does making me vote again actually not damage the institution of democracy?

This was a one off vote. Passed by a huge majority in the House of Commons. With a promise from the Government that the result would be implemented. Then a GE, with both main parties promising to honour the result.

But that means nothing? Right?

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Maine Eagle's Profile Maine Eagle Flag USA 21 May 19 6.19pm Send a Private Message to Maine Eagle Add Maine Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

But clearly, they would not. I voted in 2016 to leave. As did over 50% of the others taking part in that vote. We won. End of. We need to leave. Deal or no deal. There were no serious issues around the validity of the voting process on the day and everybody went along in good faith that the result would be implemented.

Yet you want me to vote again. Would my vote in 2019 mean more than it did in 2016? Of course not. Asking me to vote again actually makes my vote less valid because if I do not like the result, then I don't have to accept it. Why should I? Why would a second referendum settle anything?

This is the point. A second referendum, irrespective of the vote, achieves nothing positive. Even if Leave win, in a straight forward re-run, people like you will come up with another excuse not to respect the result. Or will you not have your fingers crossed this time? Will you really, really, really mean it? Heart crossed and hope to die if you are lying?

Leave or Remain has been settled. Done and dusted. If Parilament want to f*** us over, then at least want them to do it whilst looking us in the eye. But not another vote. It crushes us. There is no positive outcome from it.

Deal or no deal you say, Matov.

Please understand that you cannot call for democracy to be respected on one hand regarding the 2016 vote itself, then unilaterally sack off the concept of democracy on HOW we leave the EU.

Millions who voted for Brexit did not vote for no deal, end of story. So bringing them a no deal exit, is not respecting democratic principles.

The idea was certainly to implement the result of the 2016 vote, the trouble is there are huge and significant differences between no deal and may's deal (just 2 of the options). This was the failure of the 2016 vote, and whoever decided on how that should be run, should probably be hung, drawn and quartered.

You think people didnt accept the 2016 vote. I disagree with you, and contest that the 2016 vote was undeliverable. This is the difference between us.

If leave wins a second vote, I can guarantee you that I will accept that 1000% as it will have a 2nd question behind it on HOW to leave. So it will be a deliverable vote, unlike 2016. Many remainer politicians have said any vote now would be totally respected either way, as many of the lies (on both sides) have now been exposed, and people are seeing whats going on with British Steel and others.

The outcome of a second vote would be leaving the EU according to the desired method as per the vote, or remaining in the EU, if that is now the democratic will of the people.

If it is now the democratic will of the people in 2019, to remain in the EU, with all due respect, who are you to tell them they cannot do that?

PS whats with the selective replying, if you are gonna reply to a post just include the whole original post?

 


Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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View Maine Eagle's Profile Maine Eagle Flag USA 21 May 19 6.22pm Send a Private Message to Maine Eagle Add Maine Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by ChrisGC

Sorry, forgot they you'd cornered that market on this thread.

You had all this time to think of something cutting and witty, and this is it, Chris?

That was not worth waiting for.

Not your best work here.

 


Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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View Maine Eagle's Profile Maine Eagle Flag USA 21 May 19 6.25pm Send a Private Message to Maine Eagle Add Maine Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

But if my vote in 2016 counts for nothing, why would I bother voting again on the same question? Seriously. Or was I a moron on June 23rd 2016 for believing that this was it? That the result would be implemented?

How on earth does making me vote again actually not damage the institution of democracy?

This was a one off vote. Passed by a huge majority in the House of Commons. With a promise from the Government that the result would be implemented. Then a GE, with both main parties promising to honour the result.

But that means nothing? Right?

Im not saying it wont damage the institution of democracy, I am just saying it is the only way to settle this one way or the other, so is a necessary evil. Very necessary.

You weren't a moron on June 23rd for thinking that vote would lead to Brexit, ultimately it still may do just that. What was not known or appreciated on June 23rd (one of many, many things) is the big differences in the outcomes depending on HOW we leave the EU.

It was certainly promised that the result would be implemented.

My view is after 3 years it is clear it is not implementable in a binary fashion as per the vote which selected it. Therefore you kinda need another vote.

 


Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 21 May 19 6.34pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

If you step back and look at how the referendum has affected the British political system its effect has been truly seismic.

I have no real idea how things are going to look a year from now.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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