The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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  Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 1.32pm |
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Originally posted by chris123
Parliament has demonstrated that it is unable to agree on a deal and voted one down three times already. What's your point? That it hasn't yet found the way doesn't mean it cannot and it certainly doesn't mean it will allow itself to be sidelined. It will do what is necessary.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 02 Sep 19 1.39pm |
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Looks like Boris is going for it He needs the approval of Parliament (something I sure some posters will be happy with) if the opposition refuse I think the public will be entitled to ask why? The only question on the table should will the GE be before 31 Oct. If the answer is yes then Corbyn and co really needs to agree if they want to maintain credibility with the voters. Boris is showing he is decisive something Mrs May completely failed to do.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 1.42pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
Nonsense. This boils down to a very simple issue. You either believe the vote of June 23rd needs to be honoured or you do not. If the campaign for a second vote was based on an assumption that the people deserved a second vote on the type of leave then I might, incredibly grudgingly, concede that it was an idea worthy of debate. But that is not what you want. You want either a revocation of A50 or a 'peoples' vote that pitches Mays utterly useless 'deal' against another chance to Remain. And that is utterly fraudulent and an affront to every principle of democracy. On June 23rd 2016 Remain lost. Leave won. And until that basic fact is accepted by our Parliament and a noisy percentage of Remainers then nothing else matters. It has nothing whatsoever with honouring the vote in 2016. That is just a red herring trotted out by arch anti EU leavers. I don't hear anyone in the current debate suggesting we shouldn't leave, only how we should leave and whether we ought to confirm how people now feel after 3 years of real experience. Which I disagree with by the way! What this is about is who is sovereign. The executive or Parliament. In such a fight there will ultimately only be one winner. Battles may be lost during the war but Parliament will win it. The principles of our democracy are vested solely in our Parliament. No referendum plays any kind of role. Our Parliament committed to honour that result and triggered Article 50. Our Parliament can withdraw that commitment and repeal Article 50 if, in the light of subsequent events, they consider it is in our best interests to do so. That's our democracy, whether you like it or not, and whether you understand it or not.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 1.52pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
That is up to a vote until it happens I don't know and neither do you. I trust you will agree that if Corbyn fails to get the votes for whichever motion he is going for that the will of parliament has been heard and we can leave without a deal. I am touched that you are so concerned about the sovereignty of Parliament as many leavers will point out that is why we want to leave the EU. You are making too much of the current situation our democracy is not under threat (yet). Governments are entitled to set the timetable and opposition are entitled to oppose the timetable and the bills. I accept that Johnson has picked a timetable that favours his government but then Corbyn is planning to do the same thing with the opposition and set his timetable. Both sides are playing politics. Right now my preference is for a GE before 31 Oct if we get that hopefully the losers will stop complaining. I disagree. It is abundantly clear that the balance of opinion in Parliament is against a no deal Brexit. I don't think Corbyn will decide this, and certainly hope not. I think Blair is right and agreeing to an election would be falling into a trap set by Johnson's strategists. I hope wiser heads in the shadow cabinet and behind the scenes will restrain Corbyn's instincts and personal ambitions. Our sovereignty has never been, and remains, under any kind of threat by being a member of the EU. That's just yet another anti-EU myth. Governments have set the timetable only by conventions granted to them by Parliament. If they abuse that gift then it will be removed from them. If an executive seeks to establish sovereignty over Parliament then it will be treated like the naughty child it seeks to mimic and probably given a "time out".
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| Midlands Eagle 02 Sep 19 1.59pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The principles of our democracy are vested solely in our Parliament. No referendum plays any kind of role. Our Parliament committed to honour that result and triggered Article 50. Our Parliament can withdraw that commitment and repeal Article 50 if, in the light of subsequent events, they consider it is in our best interests to do so. If parliament tries to repeal Article 50 the resulting demonstrations will make the current unrest in Hong Kong look like a barn dance
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 2.01pm |
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Wow you are deluded if you think a further delay is either honorable or will result in less division in this country. No amount of "peoples votes" or "governments of national unity" or whatever ****ing spin you put on ignoring a democratic vote is going to change anything now. We either withdraw without a deal and get on with our lives or (as I suspect will happen) Boris puts liptstick on the WA and gets it through parliament and we go down a road of further division, delay and probably escalating civil unrest. Though it's difficult to know where remainers can go now with the rhetoric now that everyone is a nazi/fascist who doesn't agree with them although we've already had one person suggest that leavers should be gassed. It's the politicians, institutions and mainstream media who have a lot to answer for. Originally posted by W12
Edited by W12 (02 Sep 2019 12.41pm) There is so much that is wrong there that I simply don't have the time to pick through it all and explain why right now. In short I really don't think you comprehend how British Parliamentary Democracy actually works. We don't operate a dictatorship where one group's views dominate just because they "won" a small majority some years ago in a flawed plebiscite on a subject everyone now understands much better. We operate a representative democracy in which we pay people to think and act on our behalf.
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| furrybloke Hemel Hempstead 02 Sep 19 2.02pm |
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Personally I don't want a GE Lets just put the decision to the people. Final deal With no change for at least a decade Then we can get on with everything else. A GE between Bojo & JC is like choosing between the Devil & the Deep Blue Sea, most likely we end up with another hung parliament & more years of this Bollox. Just get it done & put to bed one way or another. I understand why Boris is prepared to go for no deal from a negotiating position, but he has shot himself by closing parliament for so long.
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| steeleye20 Croydon 02 Sep 19 2.02pm |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
If parliament tries to repeal Article 50 the resulting demonstrations will make the current unrest in Hong Kong look like a barn dance Really bring it on. Empty threats from the bunker.
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| W12 02 Sep 19 2.17pm | |
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Originally posted by furrybloke
Personally I don't want a GE Lets just put the decision to the people. Final deal With no change for at least a decade Then we can get on with everything else. A GE between Bojo & JC is like choosing between the Devil & the Deep Blue Sea, most likely we end up with another hung parliament & more years of this Bollox. Just get it done & put to bed one way or another. I understand why Boris is prepared to go for no deal from a negotiating position, but he has shot himself by closing parliament for so long. Final deal 32% Then what happens?
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| Badger11 Beckenham 02 Sep 19 2.31pm |
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Originally posted by furrybloke
Personally I don't want a GE Lets just put the decision to the people. Final deal With no change for at least a decade Then we can get on with everything else. A GE between Bojo & JC is like choosing between the Devil & the Deep Blue Sea, most likely we end up with another hung parliament & more years of this Bollox. Just get it done & put to bed one way or another. I understand why Boris is prepared to go for no deal from a negotiating position, but he has shot himself by closing parliament for so long. There are a number of problems that I see with holding a 2nd referendum. 1. The question. Whatever the question is some people will be upset and claim it's not fair. So for me a GE is the best of 2 evils. If we have one I hope that the winning side has a good majority even if that means it's Corbyn. The worst result will be another hung Parliament.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 02 Sep 19 2.34pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
There are a number of problems that I see with holding a 2nd referendum. 1. The question. Whatever the question is some people will be upset and claim it's not fair. So for me a GE is the best of 2 evils. If we have one I hope that the winning side has a good majority even if that means it's Corbyn. The worst result will be another hung Parliament. God forbid.
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| Matov 02 Sep 19 2.35pm |
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Originally posted by furrybloke
Personally I don't want a GE Lets just put the decision to the people. Final deal What justification is there for a Remain option? Remain lost. It's done. Over. You don't get a second bite at the cherry. Varients of Leave then perhaps there is an argument to be made but Remain is simply not an option.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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