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View Maine Eagle's Profile Maine Eagle Flag USA 05 Sep 19 2.34pm Send a Private Message to Maine Eagle Add Maine Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Still on about Muslims on the Brexit thread?

Sorry Maine, but if you're going to do the 'isms' and the 'phobias' then things like explanations get you about as much currency as you give your targets.

Practice what you preach and continue to live in diversity.

Come on Stirley who is your battle against?

 


Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 05 Sep 19 2.51pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Jway89

Taking away the ideologies of Brexit, which I understand completely. Should we be able to control immigration? I think every country should and the EU could actually fix the immigration debate by having a break off point, for example, if net migration hits +10% or whatever, then that country can choose to slow down it's entry rates for the next 4 years and start again.

A country that doesn't have control of its borders, and control of who is a citizen/subject and who isn't just isn't sovereign full stop.....No 'four years' or percentage. You either control them or you don't.

Aside from this the idea of net migration on an island is a ponzi scheme, when we have automation coming anyway.

Originally posted by Jway89

Do I believe every country should be sovereign? Of course, but to a point. My gripe with the whole sovereignty thing is that I don't really know what the EU have done to interfere with any government policies carried out since we joined. We've sold off council flats, had recessions, implemented austerity (For 99.9% of people), we have 'controlled' or not our borders from countries outside the EU. We have control of our currency, interest rates, inflation rates, vat, taxes and spending. Yes we have to pay the EU their share, but we also get a lot back.

Every law a minister wishes to pass has to go through the civil service first who check it against current EU rulings.

The EU has primacy in all aspects of law.....The British people never gave permission for this and in fact it should be unconstitutional.

Continued membership of the EU means we have to eventually give up our currency and hence fiscal controls will eventually go too.

Originally posted by Jway89


I bang on about this all the time, but, Brexit hasn't stopped me wondering here all the taxes from the FANGS are. IMHO the problem isn't just the EU, the problem is that if we raise taxes to 90%, the rich, who benefit from our system can move their money to Ireland and pay 12%. This is where I would actually like to see the EU come and say all base tax rates are 20% in all EU countries. I'm a big fan of market competition, so how about the Gvmt owening all patents and everyone can make an Iphone and we see who'sis best. The patent holder would obviously get a royalty from sales. I don't want to swindle anyone.


If it's not Ireland then it's the Caribbean.....the only way that kind of thing is stopped is through world government....which is communism.

I haven't thought about it but on initial hearing I quite like the patent idea.....patent ownership within the capitalistic system has seen a lot of abuse which has held technological advancement back for profit purposes.

I suppose once criticism against governmental ownership is that you are de-incentivizing risk......creating new drugs for example takes millions of investment which often doesn't work out.

I don't think 'royalties' is going to cut it.

Originally posted by Jway89

That's just a simple example. The problem is that we have a leader who is very much the kind of person I would have to right a speech for me, because that's all these Oxbridge debating team leaders are really good at and on the other side we have Corbyn, who for all his ideas to bring some of that wealth back down the chain, wants to do it in the 1970s way, which I do believe some of his ideas are pretty decent, but nothing he has come out with are game changers. And of course the Lib Dems, who are ed by a person who helped tuiton fees go up and brought austerity to us with the Tories.

As a nation we have created invented some of the most important things that has helped the World as a whole, but that sense of creation has just disappeared. Climate change is a massive reason and way of gaining sovereignty, by creating a new industry to be as self sufficient as possible and no one is even bothered about the potential benefits this could create.

Climate change and what response is the most sensible response to it is a valid topic.

However, this country has definitely taken steps (which have cost the poor more) down the road of green technologies. Personally I think nuclear fusion is the answer and that we have dragged our feet and cost ourselves a lot compared to France for example.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Sep 2019 3.40pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 05 Sep 19 2.54pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Come on Stirley who is your battle against?

Blimey, that's a bit of an existential question isn't it?

Frigging hell Mainey....It's too early to go that deep....as Abbott said to Corbyn.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Sep 2019 2.55pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Phil’s Barber's Profile Phil’s Barber Flag Crowborough 05 Sep 19 3.02pm Send a Private Message to Phil’s Barber Add Phil’s Barber as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

Actually it is reflected in the recent voting as well, remain parties polled around 56%, higher than the tory/brexit leavers combined.


Completely wrong.

The most recent vote of any significance in this Country was the UK’s European Election vote in May of this year.

This showed Leave parties winning by almost 3 percent and the BBC had to apologise that they had misled the public with their incorrect and biased reporting of the results.

[Link]

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 05 Sep 19 3.31pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

It seems that Parliament will pass the bill which forces the PM to ask the EU leaders for an extension.

All EU leaders will have to agree to that and it occurs to me that the bill doesn't say how the PM should ask for an extension.

Boris is not known for his tact and at the Spectator his nickname was Brute.

I will leave it to your imagination to wonder how Boris asks Chancellor Merkel, President Macron et all it may not be diplomatic.

On a more serious note it is possible that he will persuade one of our allies (do we have any) to vote no in return for a favour.


Edited by Badger11 (05 Sep 2019 3.32pm)

 


One more point

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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 05 Sep 19 3.40pm Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

On a more serious note it is possible that he will persuade one of our allies (do we have any) to vote no in return for a favour.

Or vote no ourselves

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 05 Sep 19 3.42pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

It seems that Parliament will pass the bill which forces the PM to ask the EU leaders for an extension.

All EU leaders will have to agree to that and it occurs to me that the bill doesn't say how the PM should ask for an extension.

Boris is not known for his tact and at the Spectator his nickname was Brute.

I will leave it to your imagination to wonder how Boris asks Chancellor Merkel, President Macron et all it may not be diplomatic.

On a more serious note it is possible that he will persuade one of our allies (do we have any) to vote no in return for a favour.


Edited by Badger11 (05 Sep 2019 3.32pm)

Orban would probably do us that favour.....but regardless Johnson can't be forced.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Sep 2019 3.43pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Deleted11 05 Sep 19 3.42pm

I do get your points but I would argue that the way we have been printing money is an anti democratic approach that will kill our sovereignty. The lucky thing is that everyone is doing it and God knows how it will be resolved. All I know is that if 2/3 of the World decide to drop the $ as the global currency, we're going to have bigger problems than Brexit.

I get the incentive bit. My issue is that companies get around not paying taxes, mainly by setting the companies up in low tax havens, transfers pricing, royalties and mangnt fees. The who owns the patent idea is to get rid of one way of reducing tax liabilities. It's all good having incentivised entrepreneurs but the bottom 90%, economically, need incentives to go out and work.

I do think that some form of comunocapitalism is going to happen though. It's inevitable. We live in a system where, if he bottom 20% decided to default on their debt,which is what the banks did, we would be f'd. It's not even that, if we had the BoE raise rates to 5%, we would also be f'd, which they should do, right, the economy is going so well now, we are told.

This is the main issue with governments in general. They impose policies that cost the sub 99% more than the top but don't do anything with it. We now have ULEZ. Now if you were to say to me that the money from that was going towards developing new ways of cutting down pollution, increasing battery life in cars, inventing new climate tech, then I would still be p'd off but I'm rational and could understand it. The problem is their lack of understanding and ingenuity.

So while I sympathise with the Brexit lot for being betrayed, what this whole process has shown is that this form of democracy cannot handle big issues. The fact that I could go and vote brexit, but change my mind to remain, if I saw a black cat run down the street is indeed my right. I'm just not sure it's productive.


Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Climate change and what response is the most sensible response to it is a valid topic.

However, this country has definitely taken steps (which have cost the poor more) down the road of green technologies. Personally I think nuclear fusion is the answer and that we have dragged our feet and cost ourselves a lot compared to France for example.

 

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 05 Sep 19 3.44pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Phil’s Barber


Completely wrong.

The most recent vote of any significance in this Country was the UK’s European Election vote in May of this year.

This showed Leave parties winning by almost 3 percent and the BBC had to apologise that they had misled the public with their incorrect and biased reporting of the results.

[Link]

Most of the polls suggest remain now lead by 8% or thereabouts.

I didn't follow the BBC but the Guardian National results for the May 2019 EU poll show remain parties 53.5% leave 44.0% which bears this out.

But polls can be wrong as we know.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 05 Sep 19 3.48pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Jway89

I do get your points but I would argue that the way we have been printing money is an anti democratic approach that will kill our sovereignty. The lucky thing is that everyone is doing it and God knows how it will be resolved. All I know is that if 2/3 of the World decide to drop the $ as the global currency, we're going to have bigger problems than Brexit.

I get the incentive bit. My issue is that companies get around not paying taxes, mainly by setting the companies up in low tax havens, transfers pricing, royalties and mangnt fees. The who owns the patent idea is to get rid of one way of reducing tax liabilities. It's all good having incentivised entrepreneurs but the bottom 90%, economically, need incentives to go out and work.

I do think that some form of comunocapitalism is going to happen though. It's inevitable. We live in a system where, if he bottom 20% decided to default on their debt,which is what the banks did, we would be f'd. It's not even that, if we had the BoE raise rates to 5%, we would also be f'd, which they should do, right, the economy is going so well now, we are told.

This is the main issue with governments in general. They impose policies that cost the sub 99% more than the top but don't do anything with it. We now have ULEZ. Now if you were to say to me that the money from that was going towards developing new ways of cutting down pollution, increasing battery life in cars, inventing new climate tech, then I would still be p'd off but I'm rational and could understand it. The problem is their lack of understanding and ingenuity.

So while I sympathise with the Brexit lot for being betrayed, what this whole process has shown is that this form of democracy cannot handle big issues. The fact that I could go and vote brexit, but change my mind to remain, if I saw a black cat run down the street is indeed my right. I'm just not sure it's productive.

A good post with lots of valid points.

Perhaps one of us will explore this a bit later.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Deleted11 05 Sep 19 3.52pm

Yeah, defo, but I think I'm done with increasing the pages on this thread.


Originally posted by Stirlingsays

A good post with lots of valid points.

Perhaps one of us will explore this a bit later.

 

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 05 Sep 19 4.04pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Orban would probably do us that favour.....but regardless Johnson can't be forced.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Sep 2019 3.43pm)

He may well no longer be PM by then anyway.


 

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