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March 29 2024 9.50am

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 Sep 19 5.27pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by W12

The mere fact that the country chose to change the status quo is enough justification for holding a referendum in the first place. We should have had referendum before on the various EU treaties as our sovereignty was ceded to the EU without our permission, but we were denied.

BS. In a Parliamentary democracy like ours we delegate that job to our representatives. If they then decide to consult the people directly then that's their decision.

Brexit has not divided the country. The Brexit vote is just an expression of an underlying division that already existed in the country. It was just the first opportunity people had to express this. The pretty disgusting reaction of the technocrats had just underlined to people that they were right all along.

That there has always been a section of society who were Eurosceptic is true but it was never big enough to be really important. What holding the 2016 referendum did was to allow those who had become concerned about things like immigration and austerity to express those concerns and to give the government a black eye. Add them to the committed Eurosceptics and those who always think that change is a good thing, because nothing could be worse than "this", whatever "this" is at the time, and we got the result we did. As I have argued many times a referendum is a daft way to take serious decisions. We need to allow our elected professionals to do that.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 Sep 19 5.35pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

Makes no sense. What did I say about you as I cant remember or find the post....

PS The voting paper (and your darling Cameron) said LEAVE or REMAIN
IT was he said your choice, not the MPs Not Parliament BUT YOU THE PEOPLE......shame the MPs didnt listen to him!!

Here's your quote. It wasn't far back:-

"People like me? Really?And what am I like wisbech? you dont know me. Stop assuming stuff, Im just thankful Im not like you...."

Cameron is not my darling at all. I think he has a great deal to answer for but I try to be fair and what he has said about Johnson and Gove is clearly true.

Sure the voting paper asked a simple question. To which the people gave a simple answer. Unfortunately it turns out there weren't any simple answers and the question ought not have been put in that way.

Parliament has decided that the answer to the real question has not yet been found and that's not only their right, but their constitutional duty.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 Sep 19 5.38pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

The 'incredible hulk' flops again.

Ridiculed by the Luxembourg PM, unable to face a press conference so they just went on anyway without him.

Another day in brexit banana-land.

Brought to you by the Conservative party.

He is making us look like a bunch of idiots. How on earth, they must be thinking, can we seriously choose this man as our PM? Oh wait. We didn't of course. 180,000 party members did.

 

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View twist's Profile twist Flag Miami, Florida 16 Sep 19 5.40pm Send a Private Message to twist Add twist as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That there has always been a section of society who were Eurosceptic is true but it was never big enough to be really important. What holding the 2016 referendum did was to allow those who had become concerned about things like immigration and austerity to express those concerns and to give the government a black eye. Add them to the committed Eurosceptics and those who always think that change is a good thing, because nothing could be worse than "this", whatever "this" is at the time, and we got the result we did. As I have argued many times a referendum is a daft way to take serious decisions. We need to allow our elected professionals to do that.

I think i agree with Socrates these days when it comes to democracy. The plebs are getting dumber and dumber.
However, i believe in Brexit, and i dont even live there

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 Sep 19 5.44pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

Its rather like the arguments that used to be on here with Willo over his absurd defence of Clattenburg and other referees, at least Willo (and Clattenberg) eventually gave up.

Did you read what he wrote and then fail to find the slightest justification for the wild claims it contained?

It's not me making absurd defences. There weren't any defences, other than trying to find some mud to sling.

It was about as effective as us trying to stop the Spurs attack on Saturday by standing still on the half way line and throwing insults at them.

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 16 Sep 19 5.52pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Matov


But a Remain option immediately makes any referendum lack any credible legitimacy. It was on the 2016 paper and was rejected.

Why do you think that having a Remain option again achieves anything? It does not. It means a lot of people do not bother voting. It cements the narrative that our political class do not listen to what it is being told.

I genuinely struggle to get my head around what you think it achieves? OK so we have the farce of this 'peoples vote'. And A50 is rescinded. Nobody on the Leave side takes it in anyway seriously. The more extreme voices gain a credibility that they lack at the moment. The divisions become absolutes.

Because we rejoin, the EU carrys on as it is with its ambitions now swollen. The UK can, quite rightly, be painted now as a subdued member. Held up as an example to anybody else who dares try to challenge the status quo. Vote to Leave and you are ignored anyway.

It plants the seeds of mayhem and chaos that you cannot even begin to envisage. And it is why I struggle so much with the Remainer mindset. You all like to portray yourselves as the brighter ones. That somehow your opinions are more worthy than all the others and yet you want to procede with the utter insanity of making people vote again on something like this.

As a Leaver in 2016 and even more firmly of the opinion that it is the right thing to do now why should I take part in such a vote and then accept the result like a good little boy? What democratic legitimacy would a Remain result have? Why should this second vote be the definite one? I appreciate that it is somewhat of an over-done narrative but it is absolutely valid. Why not a third vote? Or a fourth? Or a fifth?

There was a vote. And Remain lost. And yes, ultimately that is what democracy boils down to. People have a choice, they cast their votes and the one with the most wins.


Edited by Matov (16 Sep 2019 2.25pm)

It was also on the ballot in the early 70s and not joining was defeated. The public has since changed its mind. As it does every 5 years in general ections. The only difference is the period of time between votes. That's democracy!

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 Sep 19 5.55pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov


But a Remain option immediately makes any referendum lack any credible legitimacy. It was on the 2016 paper and was rejected.

Why do you think that having a Remain option again achieves anything? It does not. It means a lot of people do not bother voting. It cements the narrative that our political class do not listen to what it is being told.

I genuinely struggle to get my head around what you think it achieves? OK so we have the farce of this 'peoples vote'. And A50 is rescinded. Nobody on the Leave side takes it in anyway seriously. The more extreme voices gain a credibility that they lack at the moment. The divisions become absolutes.

As I have frequently said I don't want any more referendums, on anything. All I am doing is speculating what might be on a new ballot, if Parliament decides to hold one. If we get a very split vote, with a significant group of LibDem and SNP MPs returned then I expect a Remain option to be put. I don't though expect it to win. I would have thought, in the scenario I described, that the existing deal would be the second preference of most people and be chosen by an overwhelming margin, thus having the potential to finally allow people to all agree about the outcome and get behind it.


Because we rejoin, the EU carrys on as it is with its ambitions now swollen. The UK can, quite rightly, be painted now as a subdued member. Held up as an example to anybody else who dares try to challenge the status quo. Vote to Leave and you are ignored anyway.

It plants the seeds of mayhem and chaos that you cannot even begin to envisage. And it is why I struggle so much with the Remainer mindset. You all like to portray yourselves as the brighter ones. That somehow your opinions are more worthy than all the others and yet you want to procede with the utter insanity of making people vote again on something like this.

As a Leaver in 2016 and even more firmly of the opinion that it is the right thing to do now why should I take part in such a vote and then accept the result like a good little boy? What democratic legitimacy would a Remain result have? Why should this second vote be the definite one? I appreciate that it is somewhat of an over-done narrative but it is absolutely valid. Why not a third vote? Or a fourth? Or a fifth?

There was a vote. And Remain lost. And yes, ultimately that is what democracy boils down to. People have a choice, they cast their votes and the one with the most wins.


We ALL lost in 2016 and not just Remain. Our democracy does not "boil down" to any kind of referendum result. The boiling down all takes place after lengthy analysis and debate in Parliament. They will decide how we proceed. Not you, me or Johnson.


Edited by Matov (16 Sep 2019 2.25pm)

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 16 Sep 19 6.07pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Did you read what he wrote and then fail to find the slightest justification for the wild claims it contained?

It's not me making absurd defences. There weren't any defences, other than trying to find some mud to sling.

It was about as effective as us trying to stop the Spurs attack on Saturday by standing still on the half way line and throwing insults at them.

From what I saw, that could have been an option. Not really seeing a downside. Don't think Roy has it in his playbook though.

 


Red and Blue Army!

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 16 Sep 19 6.13pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

It was also on the ballot in the early 70s and not joining was defeated. The public has since changed its mind. As it does every 5 years in general ections. The only difference is the period of time between votes. That's democracy!

What utter s***e.

The Referendum has to be implemented before it can be voted on again.
Your examples argue against your own position.

Zealous Remainers really are bonkers.
This thread has been hijacked by one deluded fool already. We don't need any more illogic.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (16 Sep 2019 8.11pm)

 

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Flag The garden of England.(not really) 16 Sep 19 7.34pm Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That many hold an opinion is fairly obvious but not really the point is it?

I don't believe myself superior to anyone actually. There's plenty of people much more able than me. I am though able to see bias and prejudices for what they are and value our democratic system of government rather more than many do here. Why this forum attracts and tolerates such a group is actually worthy of analysis. It isn't a normal cross section of UK opinion.

So says the oracle that is wisbech!! whos opinion is always correct!

 

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 16 Sep 19 8.19pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

So says the oracle that is wisbech!! whos opinion is always correct!

It's a shame, I enjoy a good debate, but some rather suck the fun out of it.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Online Flag Truro Cornwall 16 Sep 19 8.46pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

So says the oracle that is wisbech!! whos opinion is always correct!

So what's your opinion? Do you think that this forum's majority view is typical of the country as a whole? If so I think you need to get out more.

 

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