The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 15 Jan 20 10.33pm |
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As I did not (and will not) identify who made the very unkind comment that the majority of members here are racist bone heads and knuckle draggers it must follow that it is impossible for anybody other than me to be able to describe them as anything at all. They aren't though the least bit degenerate. They are perfectly healthy and normal. They just can be straight forward and very rude. That's the only reality involved.
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Teddy Eagle  15 Jan 20 11.03pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
As I did not (and will not) identify who made the very unkind comment that the majority of members here are racist bone heads and knuckle draggers it must follow that it is impossible for anybody other than me to be able to describe them as anything at all. They aren't though the least bit degenerate. They are perfectly healthy and normal. They just can be straight forward and very rude. That's the only reality involved. Whoever they are they could learn a bit about winning hearts and minds. Insults are probably not going to do the job.
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| Midlands Eagle 16 Jan 20 5.55am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The reaction of the majority on this site just speaks volumes about the political views of the majority on this site. It has been described to me as a place full of racist bone heads and knuckle draggers, but I wouldn't dream of being so rude. It's very clever of you to ascribe your feelings to your invisible friend. We had a referendum and those wanting to leave the EU won. We had a General Election and the party wishing to leave the EU won overwhelmingly but the divisions within the the country will never heal whilst elderly recalcitrants refuse to accept the will of the people. Rather than just pissing in to the wind why not just stop making a fool of yourself and accept the inevitable instead of trying your hardest to rip the country apart
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 16 Jan 20 9.53am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
It's very clever of you to ascribe your feelings to your invisible friend. We had a referendum and those wanting to leave the EU won. We had a General Election and the party wishing to leave the EU won overwhelmingly but the divisions within the the country will never heal whilst elderly recalcitrants refuse to accept the will of the people. Rather than just pissing in to the wind why not just stop making a fool of yourself and accept the inevitable instead of trying your hardest to rip the country apart If you recheck my initial comment you will read my own "feelings". My friend is only "invisible" to the others here. He is a fellow Palace fan and uses the HOL from time to time, especially during transfer windows, although he doesn't post and I am not sure is even a member. The will of the people at the last election was to return a Tory government under a fptp system. Why they did that is a matter of some conjecture. Brexit undoubtedly played a significant part, the primary driving force though being, in my opinion, a weariness with the situation and a belief that any resolution was better than none. The Tories, as has been clearly shown several times, did NOT win overwhelmingly at all. It was only the fptp system which delivered a large majority. The 2016 referendum was a single issue vote, which was split almost straight down the middle, with just a 4% difference. All recent polls on the same single issue indicate that if that question was asked today the result would again be split down the middle but with the balance the other way. As we now know much more in 2020 than we did 4 years ago on that subject it follows that our current opinion ought to matter more than the original one. It also follows that if the 2016 referendum result was measured by counting votes from across the whole country, and not via a fptp system in constituencies, that to make a comparison with the 2019 election we also need to look at the total number of votes cast. When we do that we can see that more people voted against the Tories than for them, and that was in spite of a disastrous performance by the Labour party. So the country is NOT being "ripped apart" by people like me at all. When more people are now in favour of remaining in the EU yet our system, together with Cameron's initial mistake, is delivering what they don't want, this is government by a minority. I recognise realities and that we cannot change the system instantly, so some kind of Brexit is going to happen. No-one though is going to convince me it is either wise or what the people, by a small majority, now actually want. These divisions have existed, in one form or another, for decades and they aren't going to subside any time soon. In the past it was the Eurosceptics making all the noise and latterly all the running. That has now changed. If Farage had lost he wouldn't have stopped campaigning and nor now will Euro enthusiasts like me. You really cannot expect anything different. The boot is just now on the other foot and is starting to kick.
There is lots to do.
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| Midlands Eagle 16 Jan 20 10.02am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The will of the people at the last election was to return a Tory government under a fptp system. The Tories, as has been clearly shown several times, did NOT win overwhelmingly at all. It was only the fptp system which delivered a large majority. You are very inconsistant in your views of our democracy. According to you our MPs are representatives and not delegates because that's the way it has been for decades yet you decry the First Past The Post System as being undemocratic despite it being part of our democratic system for over 130 years
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 16 Jan 20 11.05am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
You are very inconsistant in your views of our democracy. According to you our MPs are representatives and not delegates because that's the way it has been for decades yet you decry the First Past The Post System as being undemocratic despite it being part of our democratic system for over 130 years There is no inconsistency at all. I am rock solid in my belief that in our system of representative government it is for our MPs to take all decisions on our behalf. Our only role is to choose who represents us. Deciding what system we use to make our choice is an entirely separate issue. If, as I think has become obvious, the long standing method we have been using is producing unrepresentative governments, and leaving people effectively disenfranchised, then it's time for a change so we can improve things. You are trying to conflate chalk with cheese.
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| Midlands Eagle 16 Jan 20 12.44pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
it's time for a change so we can improve things. Hutber's Law will come into effect
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| Hrolf The Ganger 16 Jan 20 2.21pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
There is no inconsistency at all. I am rock solid in my belief that in our system of representative government it is for our MPs to take all decisions on our behalf. Our only role is to choose who represents us. Deciding what system we use to make our choice is an entirely separate issue. If, as I think has become obvious, the long standing method we have been using is producing unrepresentative governments, and leaving people effectively disenfranchised, then it's time for a change so we can improve things. You are trying to conflate chalk with cheese. We voted against PR a few years back. How many times do you want to vote on it before it meets your apparently flexible standards for being democratic? Would that be when you get your own way by any chance?
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| the silurian The garden of England.(not really) 16 Jan 20 2.54pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
If you recheck my initial comment you will read my own "feelings". My friend is only "invisible" to the others here. He is a fellow Palace fan and uses the HOL from time to time, especially during transfer windows, although he doesn't post and I am not sure is even a member. The will of the people at the last election was to return a Tory government under a fptp system. Why they did that is a matter of some conjecture. Brexit undoubtedly played a significant part, the primary driving force though being, in my opinion, a weariness with the situation and a belief that any resolution was better than none. The Tories, as has been clearly shown several times, did NOT win overwhelmingly at all. It was only the fptp system which delivered a large majority. The 2016 referendum was a single issue vote, which was split almost straight down the middle, with just a 4% difference. All recent polls on the same single issue indicate that if that question was asked today the result would again be split down the middle but with the balance the other way. As we now know much more in 2020 than we did 4 years ago on that subject it follows that our current opinion ought to matter more than the original one. It also follows that if the 2016 referendum result was measured by counting votes from across the whole country, and not via a fptp system in constituencies, that to make a comparison with the 2019 election we also need to look at the total number of votes cast. When we do that we can see that more people voted against the Tories than for them, and that was in spite of a disastrous performance by the Labour party. So the country is NOT being "ripped apart" by people like me at all. When more people are now in favour of remaining in the EU yet our system, together with Cameron's initial mistake, is delivering what they don't want, this is government by a minority. I recognise realities and that we cannot change the system instantly, so some kind of Brexit is going to happen. No-one though is going to convince me it is either wise or what the people, by a small majority, now actually want. These divisions have existed, in one form or another, for decades and they aren't going to subside any time soon. In the past it was the Eurosceptics making all the noise and latterly all the running. That has now changed. If Farage had lost he wouldn't have stopped campaigning and nor now will Euro enthusiasts like me. You really cannot expect anything different. The boot is just now on the other foot and is starting to kick.
There is lots to do. How exactly do you KNOW that more people want to remain in the EU than want to leave....surely if that was the case, MORE people would have voted for anyone other than the Tories? LibDems wanted to remain so why didnt everyone who wanted to remain vote for them?? A majority voted to leave and a majority voted for Tories, whats so difficult for you to understand?? If you are using 'the polls suggest' arguement, the polls have been wrong plenty of times, why not now?? YOU LOST< GET OVER IT!!
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 16 Jan 20 6.22pm |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
Hutber's Law will come into effect Are you perhaps thinking of Brexit?
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 16 Jan 20 6.44pm |
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Originally posted by the silurian
How exactly do you KNOW that more people want to remain in the EU than want to leave....surely if that was the case, MORE people would have voted for anyone other than the Tories? LibDems wanted to remain so why didnt everyone who wanted to remain vote for them?? A majority voted to leave and a majority voted for Tories, whats so difficult for you to understand?? If you are using 'the polls suggest' arguement, the polls have been wrong plenty of times, why not now?? YOU LOST< GET OVER IT!!
I don't "know" anymore than you don't. However, all the polls suggest that is the case and although they can, of course, be wrong they are the best guide we have right now. It's just applying basic logic. The LibDems would have fared much better if Farage had not pulled his stunt or under a PR system. The election result is not any kind of reliable guide to the people's current attitude to leaving the EU, despite all the bs to the contrary. We voted in a Tory government with a huge majority but by a minority of the votes cast. How we would respond to an "in or out" question, or even a "which type" question remains unknown. This "you lost" argument is the most nonsensical and silly response I can imagine. It's resonant of the playground. I can only imagine how Farage might respond to such claims if the 2016 referendum had split the other way by the same margin.
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| Midlands Eagle 16 Jan 20 7.23pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The LibDems would have fared much better if Farage had not pulled his stunt Isn't that the same stunt that the Lib Dems pulled with Plaid Cymru and The Green party? Farage just copied them
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