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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 20 Feb 20 12.09pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You completely miss the point. No one wants your vote null and voided. What is demanded is simply that the votes of the true majority must matter more than any individual or group. If we go on returning governments elected by a minority then the divide will not be healed. FPTP is the problem along with allowing important complex single issue questions to be answered by plebiscite.

How is 52% not a 'true majority'?

I don't disagree that there is a case to be made for PR but I do wonder if you would then be so accepting of the 80 or so UKIP MP's who would have been returned in 2015?

And you did wnat my vote rendered worthless. On June 23rd 2016 I voted in good faith. A complete and total belief that the result should be acted upon no matter which way it went. That the matter was settled for at least a generation (lets measure that in say a 25 year term).

But people like you refused to accept that. And that takes a lot of forgiving that can only truly start when you acknowledge your wrong doing.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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W12 20 Feb 20 12.16pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Because you are selecting the evidence you want to present of the way "black" entertainers/politicians behave and presenting it at face value when it cannot be. There is a background and a history which requires everything to be seen in it's context before racism can really be understood and tackled.

No I am not white. I am a British human being with diverse ethnic roots.

Why black in quotes?

Interesting use of the word *cannot*. So we "cannot" take anything at face value?

Congratulations of your clever use of nuance - which it really isn't. You do the same thing every time i.e. drown a fact based discussion in a self congratulary word salad, side step the facts and claim the moral high ground. It's all you have.

You are still oozing by the way.

 

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View cpfc_chap's Profile cpfc_chap Flag koh samui 20 Feb 20 12.17pm Send a Private Message to cpfc_chap Add cpfc_chap as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle


. A small majority was shown up in a flawed, compromised, undemocratic referendum that our elected Parliament disagreed with but failed to do it's duty and overturn. The ONLY convention that matters is that Parliament is supreme.

Where as if parliament compromised we would have had Mays soft Brexit. However as they failed to do there duty as you put it, an election had to be held and the people voted and elected mps that would act in the best interest of the country. MPs are now doing there duties in what's best for the UK regardless of what me and you think.

 

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Flag The garden of England.(not really) 20 Feb 20 3.27pm Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Because you are selecting the evidence you want to present of the way "black" entertainers/politicians behave and presenting it at face value when it cannot be. There is a background and a history which requires everything to be seen in it's context before racism can really be understood and tackled.

No I am not white. I am a British human being with diverse ethnic roots.

Just a question....why do you insist on typing "black" 'white'.....black people refer to themselves as BLACK....not "black".If they are black theyre black..what are you scared of? Does it make you feel better to not say the word without "..."

Edited by the silurian (20 Feb 2020 3.27pm)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 20 7.27pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by ASCPFC

You have a total misunderstanding of PR. The last Irish government had 28% of the vote - and that was more than the previous one.
The deal was done with the major opposition party so that business could continue. What the people got was more of the same.
Boris at well over 40% is the biggest party vote by some distance. Are you refuting that now? A bit like the way an open referendum went one way but you can't agree? I'm presuming you didn't do that well in maths O level.
However, I would like to see some kind of PR give people like the Liberals and the Greens a few more seats. Not because I like them - I don't. But because there is little return for a lot of votes in the Westminster model. Genuinely takes a lot more nuanced thought than scrapping FPTP.
Perhaps scrap the Lords and have a PR House there to start with. A senate or such like.

Edited by ASCPFC (20 Feb 2020 11.44am)

One of my recent posts suggested exactly what you did above. Start with the second chamber. I suggested that we continue to have half the seats taken up by life peers so that the experienced and knowledgeable can be sent there. The remainder by the electorate on a regional basis via a single transferable vote.

I haven't followed the Irish elections that closely but PR will surely result in the MPs being sent to Parliament more accurately representing the views in the country. It is true that single parties would be very much less likely to win an overall majority but that is the main point. Coalitions will become the norm, compromises on policy necessary and big swings in direction avoided. Gone would be the days when a new government spent lots of time undoing what the previous government did. It might become more boring for some but I prefer consensus and co-operation to endless conflict.

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 20 9.41pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

How is 52% not a 'true majority'?

The comment was not addressed to a referendum result but the weakness of the FPTP method of determining a result which almost always results in a government chosen by a minority of the voters.

I don't disagree that there is a case to be made for PR but I do wonder if you would then be so accepting of the 80 or so UKIP MP's who would have been returned in 2015?

I would have been delighted. My enthusiasm for PR goes back well before UKIP emerged. They deserved to be represented in Parliament. As they would have taken most, if not all, of those seats in previous Tory strongholds, it would have denied the Tories a majority. No-one can be sure what would have resulted but another coalition looks most likely and the need for a referendum on EU membership made much less likely as the issue could be thrashed out where it needed to be. In Parliament.

And you did wnat my vote rendered worthless. On June 23rd 2016 I voted in good faith. A complete and total belief that the result should be acted upon no matter which way it went. That the matter was settled for at least a generation (lets measure that in say a 25 year term).

But people like you refused to accept that. And that takes a lot of forgiving that can only truly start when you acknowledge your wrong doing.

You are unhealthily angry. Some of this is old ground but permit me to try to explain why I think that anger is misplaced. We both know that no referendum has any direct legal application in the UK. It could only ever be given any legitimacy by Parliament. Not by Cameron promising to "respect" the result. Not by the political parties undertaking to deliver it in their 2017 manifestos. Not by any government. Only by Parliament passing laws. Which they did when they triggered Article 50.

Why is this important? Well Parliament isn't bound by promises made by PMs, governments or parties. Their job is to do what they believe is in the best interests of the country and that can be changed with time, new information and events. If they believed that revoking Article 50 was in the country's best interests then it wasn't just their right to do, it was their constitutional duty.

When "people like me", who included many MPs, thought that the complexity of the Brexit process had produced a change of attitude in the country, that the interference in the referendum process by the Russians, which was revealed by our security forces, meant that the result could not be trusted, we wanted Parliament to do it's duty. Many MPs tried, but Corbyn thwarted them through self interest and we got the result we have.

It's nothing to do with "people like me" refusing to accept a referendum vote. It's our belief in the sovereignty of Parliament and it's supremacy over all other political institutions and the promises they might make.

Your anger is not justified. Nor were your expectations. Too many people put too much trust in what individual politicians promise in order to gain your trust and I suggest that's where your anger is more correctly directed.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (20 Feb 2020 9.43pm)

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 20 9.51pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by W12

Why black in quotes?

Because that's the term used by you. For me the colour of any person's skin is irrelevant.

Interesting use of the word *cannot*. So we "cannot" take anything at face value?

Of course you can. Just not this thing.

Congratulations of your clever use of nuance - which it really isn't. You do the same thing every time i.e. drown a fact based discussion in a self congratulary word salad, side step the facts and claim the moral high ground. It's all you have.

Not a lot of fact in your previous comment.Just rather a lot of dubious opinion.

You are still oozing by the way.

Just checked. Not a sign of any "ooze" anywhere.

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 20 9.54pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by cpfc_chap

Where as if parliament compromised we would have had Mays soft Brexit. However as they failed to do there duty as you put it, an election had to be held and the people voted and elected mps that would act in the best interest of the country. MPs are now doing there duties in what's best for the UK regardless of what me and you think.

That's true but that doesn't mean that those who fought so hard last year to stop it happening were doing anything wrong. Which was the accusation.

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 20 10.07pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

Just a question....why do you insist on typing "black" 'white'.....black people refer to themselves as BLACK....not "black".If they are black theyre black..what are you scared of? Does it make you feel better to not say the word without "..."

Edited by the silurian (20 Feb 2020 3.27pm)

Anybody who describes themselves, or anyone else, by their skin colour gets criticised by me. That includes the media who do it all the time.

I think it just perpetuates the problem. It is unnecessary unless someone is giving a description to the Police. What relevance is a person's skin colour to anything? There are other much more relevant descriptors available in every case.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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W12 20 Feb 20 10.50pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Anybody who describes themselves, or anyone else, by their skin colour gets criticised by me. That includes the media who do it all the time.

I think it just perpetuates the problem. It is unnecessary unless someone is giving a description to the Police. What relevance is a person's skin colour to anything? There are other much more relevant descriptors available in every case.

According to almost everyone in positions in influence in this country ethnicity, gender and sexual preference now mean everything
Including defining your character. If those are the rules that we have to play to then I’ll be forced to stick with my own as the stakes are as high as they get. Never bring a knife to a gun fight as they say (that’s not meant in poor taste by the way).

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 20 Feb 20 11.18pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by W12

According to almost everyone in positions in influence in this country ethnicity, gender and sexual preference now mean everything
Including defining your character. If those are the rules that we have to play to then I’ll be forced to stick with my own as the stakes are as high as they get. Never bring a knife to a gun fight as they say (that’s not meant in poor taste by the way).

I don't believe that "almost everyone" believes such a thing.

In any case what on earth has this to do with a person's skin colour? Ethnicity isn't defined by skin colour. And a person's ethnicity is almost always a mixed bag anyway.

Skin colour needs to be taken out of the debate so that the real issues can be identified and discussed.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View cpfc_chap's Profile cpfc_chap Flag koh samui 21 Feb 20 4.55am Send a Private Message to cpfc_chap Add cpfc_chap as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That's true but that doesn't mean that those who fought so hard last year to stop it happening were doing anything wrong. Which was the accusation.

But that's the point if they compromised maybe the divide would have been stitched up! Can you not see who's creating the divide

 

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