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July 17 2019 9.48pm

The Brexit Thread

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag Wisbech, England 28 May 19 10.42pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Sovereignty.

If the last 3 years have shown you anything, its that the UK parliament is a bigger f*** up than the EU.

And sovereignty means they get MORE power.

Worse trading arrangements, lack of access to police and terror data, chaos at the borders, recession, higher prices, lack of goods and medicine, uk manufacturers priced out of the market, job losses.

I certainly dont get why people have such a boner for brexit - its probably going to cause a huge recession.

Sovereignty means control over immigration.
Sovereignty means control over most other laws.
Sovereignty means independence as a separate country.

You are obsessed with money.

Money is important but few leavers voted leave because of money.

Your precious EU acts like an independent superstate and wants it's own foreign policy and even talks of an army independent of Nato.

All this from a bunch of politicians who rule in an untouchable cabal whose commission can't be removed in any practical sense and who can't even put together a coherent currency that works and whose system is so corrupt even an Italian would blush.

People aren't stupid despite what you like to think. You carry on thinking the EU is the bees knees. I'll live and die as an Englishman: I never traded in.


Edited by Stirlingsays (28 May 2019 10.44pm)

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 28 May 19 10.53pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

I recommend the second of Jonathan Sumption’s Reith lectures to anyone that wishes to debate Brexit. He asserts the illegitimacy of a situation where simple majority carries total power. It is not how politics can work in a sustainable fashion. To avoid a true meltdown there has to be the potential to compromise.

[Link]

In truth I write this to Stirling as the only person likely to bother and who is capable of taking a dispassionate view on it.

 

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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 28 May 19 10.56pm Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Sovereignty.

If the last 3 years have shown you anything, its that the UK parliament is a bigger f*** up than the EU.

And sovereignty means they get MORE power.

Worse trading arrangements, lack of access to police and terror data, chaos at the borders, recession, higher prices, lack of goods and medicine, uk manufacturers priced out of the market, job losses.

I certainly dont get why people have such a boner for brexit - its probably going to cause a huge recession.

There is an onion-like quality to it I agree, in that you strip away one layer, and there's another bunch of clowns pulling the strings. But at the same time there is a good argument that the more local politics is to you, the more potential there is at least to have say.

There is a certainly irony that, if say we do leave soon, the government will likely try to up the number of non EU immigrants coming in, and so will the endless immigration issue, which was key to us voting leave, be improved? I think most people voting leave recognise this fact though, and that it's a transition stage, where in a post-brexit society, politics and parties may well be in a serious slate of flux for a good while, but there is still that opportunity to shape a society and government that feels like we have a direct link to it.

If the EU had listened on immigration. If only to offer a sensible cap, we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with. Maybe in future they will have tiers of countries where say you can move or live freely between certain groups of countries, but not others. That it appears to be would have been a more sensible approach. I'm not fortunate teller of course, and it's dragged on so long, I find that I'm just observing now without trying to look ahead to what next month or next year will bring.


 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag Wisbech, England 28 May 19 11.33pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

I recommend the second of Jonathan Sumption’s Reith lectures to anyone that wishes to debate Brexit. He asserts the illegitimacy of a situation where simple majority carries total power. It is not how politics can work in a sustainable fashion. To avoid a true meltdown there has to be the potential to compromise.

[Link]

In truth I write this to Stirling as the only person likely to bother and who is capable of taking a dispassionate view on it.

I've heard lots of good things about Jonathan Sumption but the link didn't work. Perhaps it's a problem with my browser.

Regardless I'll commit to you that I will listen to it.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 29 May 19 12.12am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Apologies if I am going to come across as a bit of a lunatic but there is something seriously amiss at the moment.

We have a Conservative Leadership campaign underway in which the strongest message is being sent that if anybody who actually wins it decides to take us out of the EU without a deal, then other Conservative MP's will crash their own Government, opening the door for a Corbyn led Labour Party.

Supposedly the worst thing ever.

This is insanity. Absolute madness.

Also throw in what seems an elaborate attempt to undermine Corbyn (this expulsion of Alastair Campbell is beginning to not feel right either. Suspecting this about far, far more than him voting Lib-Dem) and I am wondering if we are on the verge of a cross-party coup.

Something along the lines of a national Government? An attempt to share the blame of revoking A50 or implementing a rigged second referendum?

Willing to accept all the abuse possible because I would be tempted to do so myself if somebody else were writing this, and it could well be me being me, but this is all stinking now to high heaven.

Remain Labour want rid of Corbyn. Remain Tories want rid of anybody who actually might see through on their manifesto promise. And the Brexit Party must be causing them to be needing a change of under pants because it upsets the entire apple-cart of Left/Right that our system is based on.

These b******s will stitch us all up if it means saving their careers and the jungle they play in.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 29 May 19 12.40am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

And Bercow aint standing down.

This is real. This really is a coup. f***.

Or else I am losing my mind. But what other way is there of looking at it? Seriously. Somebody convince me that I am losing my mind because otherwise....

f***.

LOL. Reckon I need to lay off this politics stuff for a while. Been over-load of late.

Edited by Matov (29 May 2019 12.48am)

 

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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 29 May 19 1.26am Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

And Bercow aint standing down.

This is real. This really is a coup. f***.

Or else I am losing my mind. But what other way is there of looking at it? Seriously. Somebody convince me that I am losing my mind because otherwise....

f***.

LOL. Reckon I need to lay off this politics stuff for a while. Been over-load of late.

Edited by Matov (29 May 2019 12.48am)

It's dragged on so long I think we're all losing the plot a bit. I would say though that the EU election result has to mean something to the Conservatives though, and has to be a message. Logically, a huge chunk of their vote went to the Brexit Party and the only way to get that back is to maintain a momentum towards leaving, or at least renegotiating something meaningful if that option becomes available again.

What is the alternative? They can't back remain or let Corbyn in. It would utterly disintegrate the party, and I don't see what they would gain from crashing their own government either. If anything I think once the leadership battle is over, more agreement will develop amongst them out of desperation to get out of the other side of this intact.


 

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View davenotamonkey's Profile davenotamonkey Flag 29 May 19 2.05am Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

The former head of the WTO, doesnt seem to align with your views here, Midlands Eagle.

[Link]

Granted, he may have ulterior motives to criticize a no deal exit, but even having said that, as the former head of the WTO, I guess he knows his s*** when it comes to trade.

Ah yes, an ex-EU Commissioner that is CONTRACTUALLY bound to talk up, promote and refrain from even criticising the EU if he wants to see his (UK taxpayer-funded) EU pension. See also the same scummy money-grubber, in UK-flavour:

[Link]

Now. What does the current head of the WTO (did he previously work as an EU Commissioner?) have to say about trading on WTO terms?

He "insits that a no deal scenario with the EU will not mean a death sentence for the UK." (bbut... but that CLIFF EDGE the nice EU-puppet man warned us about?!?!)

He "points out that almost half of the UK’s trade is already on WTO terms, with the US, China and several other large nations under no trade agreement with the EU. “It’s not the end of the world if the UK trades under WTO rules with the EU, he adds." (err... but can't we ignore how our 44%-and-declining share of UK exports to a diminishing protectionist EU trade block with no growth prospects* will utterly hamper our trade priorities where economic growth will actually be* over the next 2 decades?)

*not my words, but those of the EU commission:
[Link]

“There will be an impact, but it is perfectly manageable” But they told us we'd run out of SPERM!!! (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-23/britain-faces-risk-of-sperm-shortage-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit)

He "suggests the UK may even prefer the WTO trade environment over the EU, highlighting the more &#64258;exible and easier approach within the WTO, where Britain will not have to coordinate with all the other members of the EU." My God, this man is basically Farage. Has anyone got a milkshake? He's triggered my primordial apes-throw-s***-at-things-they-hate reflex.

[Link]

Not to worry though, I'm sure the current head of the WTO actually doesn't "know his s*** when it comes to trade" so you can just carry on listening to EU stooges with a strong personal financial gain in telling you what you want to believe. It's called confirmation bias, and you're welcome.

I really am f***ing done with you people.

Oh, and to save you the "WAAH, whattabout the Ireland border! Muh EU-confected roadblock to Brexit!!" retort, here's the WTO confirming there is no WTO (and hence international trade) requirement placed on either side to establish a border:

[Link]

 

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View Maine Eagle's Profile Maine Eagle Flag USA 29 May 19 3.56am Send a Private Message to Maine Eagle Add Maine Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Ah yes, an ex-EU Commissioner that is CONTRACTUALLY bound to talk up, promote and refrain from even criticising the EU if he wants to see his (UK taxpayer-funded) EU pension. See also the same scummy money-grubber, in UK-flavour:

[Link]

Now. What does the current head of the WTO (did he previously work as an EU Commissioner?) have to say about trading on WTO terms?

He "insits that a no deal scenario with the EU will not mean a death sentence for the UK." (bbut... but that CLIFF EDGE the nice EU-puppet man warned us about?!?!)

He "points out that almost half of the UK’s trade is already on WTO terms, with the US, China and several other large nations under no trade agreement with the EU. “It’s not the end of the world if the UK trades under WTO rules with the EU, he adds." (err... but can't we ignore how our 44%-and-declining share of UK exports to a diminishing protectionist EU trade block with no growth prospects* will utterly hamper our trade priorities where economic growth will actually be* over the next 2 decades?)

*not my words, but those of the EU commission:
[Link]

“There will be an impact, but it is perfectly manageable” But they told us we'd run out of SPERM!!! (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-23/britain-faces-risk-of-sperm-shortage-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit)

He "suggests the UK may even prefer the WTO trade environment over the EU, highlighting the more &#64258;exible and easier approach within the WTO, where Britain will not have to coordinate with all the other members of the EU." My God, this man is basically Farage. Has anyone got a milkshake? He's triggered my primordial apes-throw-s***-at-things-they-hate reflex.

[Link]

Not to worry though, I'm sure the current head of the WTO actually doesn't "know his s*** when it comes to trade" so you can just carry on listening to EU stooges with a strong personal financial gain in telling you what you want to believe. It's called confirmation bias, and you're welcome.

I really am f***ing done with you people.

Oh, and to save you the "WAAH, whattabout the Ireland border! Muh EU-confected roadblock to Brexit!!" retort, here's the WTO confirming there is no WTO (and hence international trade) requirement placed on either side to establish a border:

[Link]

You seem to have failed to address the other countless entities and individuals who believe a no deal "WTO" exit would be utterly catastrophic for their business interests, and the larger economy in general.

Like I said to Rudi though, I am sure the head of the National Farmers Union and the Police Service in Northern Island (to name but 2) are just taking the piss when they state it would be totally disastrous for them?

As for trading under WTO terms being preferential to being part of one of the largest trading bloc's in the entire world, with the economies of scale that brings, that is nonsense.

People like Rees-Mogg like to talk about the EU being protectionist, it is. FOR EU COUNTRIES. In other words UK exporters and importers currently enjoy that protection and the tariff relief that brings. Ripping that up overnight at the end of October will be a complete nightmare. For exports to the EU, as a third nation, we would see tariffs of 11.1% for agricultural goods, 15.7% for animal products and 35.4% for dairy.

Do you now understand why anyone remotely connected to farming in the UK is s***ting their pants about a no deal exit?

The average price for a British car in the EU would go up by 3000 euros per car.

Do you understand why the car companies are seriously unhappy about this and how this plus many other problems will see job losses in the automotive industry?

The government's own stats show that GDP would be 10.7% lower if we leave the EU with no deal after 15 years.

Of everything you have said here, the most scandalous and outrageous is to minimize the potential issues in Ireland.

If overnight there is suddenly introduced a hard border between NI and Ireland the Good Friday Agreement is threatened. That is according to none other than the taoiseach, and to make light of that is pretty unbelievable given the history there.

 


"We need to look into the Oranges". Commander In Cheat, April 2019.

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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 29 May 19 6.32am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov


We have a Conservative Leadership campaign underway in which the strongest message is being sent that if anybody who actually wins it decides to take us out of the EU without a deal, then other Conservative MP's will crash their own Government, opening the door for a Corbyn led Labour Party.

The winner doesn't have to actively take us out as all he/she has to do is absolutely nothing and we will then leave automatically on 31st October

 

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View dannyboy1978's Profile dannyboy1978 Flag 29 May 19 7.18am Send a Private Message to dannyboy1978 Add dannyboy1978 as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

The winner doesn't have to actively take us out as all he/she has to do is absolutely nothing and we will then leave automatically on 31st October

And use the time preparing for a no deal brexit. Fail to prepare, Prepare to fail !

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 29 May 19 7.44am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

You seem to have failed to address the other countless entities and individuals who believe a no deal "WTO" exit would be utterly catastrophic for their business interests, and the larger economy in general.

Like I said to Rudi though, I am sure the head of the National Farmers Union and the Police Service in Northern Island (to name but 2) are just taking the piss when they state it would be totally disastrous for them?

As for trading under WTO terms being preferential to being part of one of the largest trading bloc's in the entire world, with the economies of scale that brings, that is nonsense.

People like Rees-Mogg like to talk about the EU being protectionist, it is. FOR EU COUNTRIES. In other words UK exporters and importers currently enjoy that protection and the tariff relief that brings. Ripping that up overnight at the end of October will be a complete nightmare. For exports to the EU, as a third nation, we would see tariffs of 11.1% for agricultural goods, 15.7% for animal products and 35.4% for dairy.

Do you now understand why anyone remotely connected to farming in the UK is s***ting their pants about a no deal exit?

The average price for a British car in the EU would go up by 3000 euros per car.

Do you understand why the car companies are seriously unhappy about this and how this plus many other problems will see job losses in the automotive industry?

The government's own stats show that GDP would be 10.7% lower if we leave the EU with no deal after 15 years.

Of everything you have said here, the most scandalous and outrageous is to minimize the potential issues in Ireland.

If overnight there is suddenly introduced a hard border between NI and Ireland the Good Friday Agreement is threatened. That is according to none other than the taoiseach, and to make light of that is pretty unbelievable given the history there.

Not go to happen. The EU rejected May's solution of using technology away from the border as impractical. Barnier was asked what will happen to the border if the UK leaves under WTO rules and his solution is to use technology away from the border err...

 


One more point

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