The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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| W12 17 Sep 19 12.23pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Don't you think it's Parliament as a whole, irrespective of whether it's individual members were originally in favour of leaving or remaining, that have simply reasserted their supremacy over the executive? Many MP's have accepted, even if they don't personally want it, that they are honour bound to try to implement to referendum decision.(I don't agree with them, but that's not the point). Their issue is the way we leave, and not if we leave. Other's take different positions but there are enough to be a majority against leaving without a deal. So this is now no longer simply about Brexit. It's about ensuring the preservation of Parliamentary democracy. Allow an executive to dominate Parliament and ignore their decisions is a big step towards allowing a future wanna be dictator to ride roughshod over our democratic processes. Parliament cannot allow such a precedent to be set. So I think your description of how things are is way of the mark. Preserving our system comes much higher up the agenda. Brexit has already been delayed so a another month or two hardly matters. No, they have ignored what is clearly the ultimate sovereignty of the UK people by inventing their own particular brand of "parliamentary sovereignty" which includes ignoring the electorate, picking and choosing what rules and precedents they wish to follow in the house and involving the UK Judiciary to meddle in those same rules and precedents. They have also mounted a subversive campaign of disinformation in project fear, held secret meetings with the EU to overturn the vote and used the obviously false concern about "no deal" to as a distraction in order hide the real aim of revoking A50. The there is also the historic abuses against the UK constitution that drew us ever closer into the EU in the first place without consultation. Add to that the campaign of complete demonization of leave voters and you have a very toxic mix. Just to be clear I consider these people as traitors and hold them with the upmost contempt. Some of them need prison sentences.
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 Matov  17 Sep 19 12.31pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Exactly right. The whole idea of a second ballot with a Remain option is completely unacceptable on every level. It is beyond irresponsible. The Lib Dem position of simply revoking A50 has far more legitimacy and whilst that would also invoke a huge reaction at least there would be no virtue signalling around it. It would simply be Parliament ignoring the wishes of the people. They have done that before, they will do that again and people can judge them accordingly. But a second referendum, with Remain as an option, is just vomit-inducing promoted by utter w***ers desperate to maintain a masquerade as 'democrats' when their motives are the exact opposite. All I ask for is honesty. They loathe us Leavers and wish to disregard our votes as irrelevant. Fine. Be open about that. Own it. Shout it from the rooftops. Have the courage of their convictions.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Midlands Eagle 17 Sep 19 1.19pm |
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Originally posted by W12
Just to be clear I consider these people as traitors and hold them with the upmost contempt. Some of them need prison sentences. In the good old days traitors used to be sent to the Tower. Is that still in working order?
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 Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 17 Sep 19 1.26pm |
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Originally posted by W12
No, they have ignored what is clearly the ultimate sovereignty of the UK people by inventing their own particular brand of "parliamentary sovereignty" which includes ignoring the electorate, picking and choosing what rules and precedents they wish to follow in the house and involving the UK Judiciary to meddle in those same rules and precedents. They have also mounted a subversive campaign of disinformation in project fear, held secret meetings with the EU to overturn the vote and used the obviously false concern about "no deal" to as a distraction in order hide the real aim of revoking A50. The there is also the historic abuses against the UK constitution that drew us ever closer into the EU in the first place without consultation. Add to that the campaign of complete demonization of leave voters and you have a very toxic mix. Just to be clear I consider these people as traitors and hold them with the upmost contempt. Some of them need prison sentences. There is no "brand" of Parliamentary democracy. It just is. We, the people, retain the ultimate sovereignty of the UK but we exercise it at General Elections and not in referendums. That some continue to believe something different is very unfortunate but that doesn't stop it being just wrong, because it is wrong whether you accept it, or not. Involving the Courts to decide whether what anyone has done is lawful is the right of every citizen. Do you seriously want that not to be the case? The rest of your comment is just the rant of someone unable, or unwilling, to accept that they are wrong. I feel sorry for you. I have tried hard to help you but ultimately if you continue to believe that which is simply wrong I cannot do any more.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 17 Sep 19 1.29pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
And provided Gina Miller approves the outcome. Gina Miller is not an MP so has no more influence, let alone control, than either of us. All she and others are doing is asking the Courts to decide whether what Johnson has done is lawful. Everyone has that right.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Midlands Eagle 17 Sep 19 1.31pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
There is no "brand" of Parliamentary democracy. It just is. We, the people, retain the ultimate sovereignty of the UK but we exercise it at General Elections and not in referendums. That some continue to believe something different is very unfortunate but that doesn't stop it being just wrong, because it is wrong whether you accept it, or not. When the government of the day offers the general public a referendum and agrees to abide by the result then the sovereignty is passed from parliament to the people. That some continue to believe something different is very unfortunate but that doesn't stop it being just wrong, because it is wrong whether you accept it, or not.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 17 Sep 19 1.40pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
And put what we have experienced already in terms of political turmoil into the shade. This is what I struggle to understand about the Remainer stance. A second referendum with a Remain option settles nothing. Only makes things MUCH MUCH MUCH worse. Because nobody will have the slightest shred of faith in the process. Why would anybody accept the result? For a start, I suspect a much lower turn out with even an organised boycott/spoiling the ballot paper campaign. That would certainly be my instinctive reaction. So at the end lets us say we get a turnout of under 50% with a Remain 'victory' under 17 million votes. Can you honestly, with a straight face, claim that as a democratic mandate to revoke A50? It will be a farce that has the potential to end in tragedy with a nation already at each other's throats and the potential for that to turn to a level of nastiness that acheives nothing other than potential bloodshed. Brexit does not go away until we have left the EU. Our national sanity requires that closure because otherwise this is a wound that festers away, poisoning every aspect of our lives. Once that is done then campaign away to Rejoin. Best of British with that. A perfectly legitimate political ambition. But to inflict another Brexit referendum on this country is the most dangerous wish of all. Beyond irresponsible. Edited by Matov (17 Sep 2019 12.04pm) As I repeatedly said I don't want another referendum. I don't want any more referendums ever, on anything. I want Parliament to do their job. However, if there is to be one I would argue for the three choices I suggested with a single transferable vote because I suspect that whilst neither no deal nor remain would win outright that the existing deal would be the second preference of most, so would be the ultimate choice and one that most could, just about, accept. Another suggestion would be to change the terms and have a binary choice only of no deal and remain, but then set a higher bar for any mandatory acceptance by Parliament. Say 75% of registered voters. Anything less than that to be taken as advisory only and returned to Parliament for the final decision. I prefer the former as it would be more likely to get this over the line to a place where we could, reluctantly perhaps, all start to come together again. So there is a reason to have remain on the ballot!
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 17 Sep 19 1.40pm |
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Originally posted by W12
No, they have ignored what is clearly the ultimate sovereignty of the UK people by inventing their own particular brand of "parliamentary sovereignty" which includes ignoring the electorate, picking and choosing what rules and precedents they wish to follow in the house and involving the UK Judiciary to meddle in those same rules and precedents. The only really surprising thing for me in all this is that you seem surprised by all this. We have all lived our whole lives in a representative democracy, which asserts parliamentary sovereignty and a constitution based on precedence. Now if we want to make arguments for direct democracy, that's good and refreshing. But what seems to be happening now is that people are arguing for it out of no real ideological belief, but because it is a convenient mechanism for getting what they want. Yes, you may feel alienated if Brexit doesn't go the way you want. But join the f***ing club. Why do you think so few black people, migrants, students, disabled people vote? Neoliberal capitalism has been making a joke out of popular autonomy for far longer than Brexit, this is just it's latest iteration.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 17 Sep 19 1.41pm |
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If you don't want another 10 years of this s***e then the lib-dems are for you. Unfortunately that means they have to be voted in which looks unlikely. The best course to avoid the UK being a terminal laughing stock is simply to cancel the whole thing.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 17 Sep 19 1.46pm |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
When the government of the day offers the general public a referendum and agrees to abide by the result then the sovereignty is passed from parliament to the people. That some continue to believe something different is very unfortunate but that doesn't stop it being just wrong, because it is wrong whether you accept it, or not. No it isn't. What Parliament offers it can withdraw in the light of experience, new information and events. No-one just carries on regardless when they have learned something that makes them change their mind. If you looked in an old programme and saw a game was set for Saturday at 3 pm but it was later changed to be broadcast by Sky on Sunday at 2 pm you wouldn't turn up at Selhurst on Saturday would you? Parliament have the duty to do what they believe is in our interests and not just do what a section, even a 52% section of people who voted in a referendum, want. That's how our system actually works.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle  17 Sep 19 1.48pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Gina Miller is not an MP so has no more influence, let alone control, than either of us. All she and others are doing is asking the Courts to decide whether what Johnson has done is lawful. Everyone has that right. Good to know. If the court decides in her favour I’ll ask them to think again. After 30,000,000 people have put their requests in we might finally get somewhere.
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| elgrande bedford 17 Sep 19 1.56pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
I always view these Supreme Court cases as inherently unfair, in my cynical way I think that the side with the most money usually wins. The government can progress through court after court throwing the taxpayers money at it, what do they care, whereas their opponent presumably has to cough up themselves, unless they win. That's a hell of a risk, imagine how costly it is, suspension probably hasn't worked for Johnson anyway. At the end of the day, as Cameron said last night on TV, he will just have to go back to the parliament where the majorities are now considerably against him. Well Gina Miller is backed by that odious little c*** soros...so he is probably richer than the government.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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