You do not use consistency on these matters and your apparent double standards when it comes to allegations of racist, homophobic or sexist remarks differs greatly on who makes them.

If a Kipper makes a remark that is publicised you instantly post a link and a 'oh dear' type message. When a Comrade makes a remark, it is to do with 'context'.

This is self serving, mealy mouthed politics. You fail to see this and embark on weird mind threads.

There still is plenty in he news about this, such as the NUS dis affiliations following the election of the new President.

May I ask you a question - why did your tome on the 'innocence' of the party member disappear?

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Where did I say context was unimportant?

I didn't. I questioned why you always seek to play the 'context' card when one of your comrades is involved in some racial matter, yet when a Kipper or someone you oppose says something racial, you don't question the 'context'. This is about you being consistent.

May I suggest that you look at your high and mighty signature and then look at paragraph two in your post above. Pathetic Gusset.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

So you can't not make it personal it seems. Nor argue on the issues. Go and find someone else to debate with then Matthew as I'm out.

Thanks for the personal attack via pm Matthew.

Here are some books/articles on the subject of collaboration between Zionists and the Nazi’s:

Hannah Arendt, in her 1960 book “Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report in the Banality of Evil,” writes: “To a Jew this role of the Jewish leaders in the destruction of their own people is undoubtedly the darkest chapter of the whole dark story.”

In “The Transfer Agreement: The Dramatic Story of the Pact between the Third Reich and Jewish Palestine” (containing an afterword by ADL head Abe Foxman), pro-Israel writer Edwin Black reports that in 1933 Zionist leaders concluded a secret pact with the Third Reich that transferred 60,000 Jews and $100,000 to Palestine, Zionists promising in return that they would halt the worldwide boycott “that threatened to topple the Hitler regime in its first year.”

Author-researcher Lenni Brenner wrote of Zionist-Nazi collusion in “Zionism in the Age of Dictators,” of which the London Times stated: “Brenner is able to cite numerous cases where Zionists collaborated with anti-Semitic regimes, including Hitler’s.”

Brenner’s second book on the topic, “51 Documents, Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis,” includes a 1940 letter from underground Zionist terrorist leader Avraham Stern proposing that Jewish militias would fight on Germany’s side in exchange for Nazi help in creating an “historic Jewish state.”

In “What Price Israel,” American Council for Judaism member Alfred Lilienthal describes FDR’s efforts to set up a program to rescue refugees, only to find Zionists sabotaging it. Roosevelt explained: “The Zionist movement knows that Palestine is, and will be for some time, a remittance society. They know that they can raise vast sums for Palestine by saying to donors, ‘There is no other place this poor Jew can go.’”

When New York attorney Morris Ernst joined this refugee effort, he was shocked: “I was thrown out of parlors of friends of mine who very frankly said ‘Morris, this is treason. You are undermining the Zionist movement.’” Ernst wrote that he found a fanatical movement of men “little concerned about human blood if it is not their own.”

In “The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust,” Israeli historian Tom Segev quotes Zionist leader and future Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion: “If I knew that it was possible to save all the Jewish children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second.”

Segev writes that Ben-Gurion worried that ‘the human conscience’ might cause various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany and saw this as a threat, warning: ‘Zionism is in danger.’”

The list is taken from Counterpunch.

Re Church and gas - Actually you are probably right that Churchill did not use gas as I had suggested. My point was that you suggested that if a “main-stream academic” doesn’t step forward to defend an argument then it can’t be true. But that depends how you classify a main stream academic. Churchill was in favour of using gas but I agree that is not the same thing.

So, the best you can do is lift a bunch of selective quotes verbatim from an anti-zionist Trotskyist (Brenner), and from a website that describes itself as left-wing muckraking with a radical attitude.

As I said, main stream academic?

As for the highly selective, and out of context, selected quotes: I dont see where anyone has disputed that some Jews collaborated with the Nazis. Just like some French, and some Russians, and some British, etc., all did. That does not, however, mean all people of a specific nationality or race collaborated. Livingstone is intelligent enough to know how to use his words, and he did not talk about a few Zionists, or a few Jews, individually working with the Nazis: instead his comments were not qualfied. That is where the problem is.

By the way, the full quote from Ben Gurion was: "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would chose the second—because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people." Thus, whether you happen to agree with him or not, he saw this as the only way to stop the Jewish race being eraticated over the longer term. Remember, this was a sentiment about 1930s Europe and what was happening to Jews there. That's not quite the same thing as implied in your more selective use, now, is it? By the way, the book that quote was taken from discusses how Jewish people tried to come to terms with what was happening in the 1930s and 1940s and how they tried to rationalize this and make the best of a series of bad options. It is not about them actively aiding the Nazis to further their Zionist agenda, as was the clear implication of Livingstone and others of that ilk.

And that, really, is my final word.

Try reading this (it's the Atlantic):
[Link]

And this from the TLS (written by Toby Lichtig, who often writes for the Guardian):

[Link]

Edited by NickinOX (15 Jun 2016 12.56pm)

If you come to a fork in the road, take it.